That is just a small subsection of the overall broad statement that ion made, that you and some other people decided to discus. Saying that this thread can only be about that is limiting.
The vitriol toward MSV only serves to rally more Warriors and Rogues to their banner.
All Ionās comments do is prove that MSV is their baby that they will protect at all costs. Who knows might even be his own original idea. Either way, they know itās not a popular spec, they know most hunters donāt want it, itās here regardless.
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Iām not saying that at all. Youāre saying that it canāt be about RSV, which makes no sense. The question literally brings up the divide among MSV and RSV. We discussed it, and then were told to quit the game.
No one said this thread could only be about " just a small subsection of the overall broad statement that ion made,"
He was just pointing out that
You all are welcome to make all the comments on the rest of what Ion said that you that you like.
/raises hand
So Iām gonna jump in this, because Iām too dumb to know when to quit.
All this argument about the viability of bringing back RSV (either via replacing MSV or as a fourth spec)ā¦ I canāt help but feel that weāre missing out on the forest for the trees.
Yes, itās unlikely that we would see four specs for Hunters.
Yes, MSV is the baby of this current crop of devs ā theyāve proven that theyāre willing to go to lengths to protect their baby.
Yes, Blizzard did the Hunter playerbase wrong by removing RSV.
Yes, Blizzard has shown slightly dubious understanding of the differences between the three Hunter specs (especially MM and RSV) prior to Legion.
However, this doesnāt mean we canāt come up with different ideas outside of the box!
There are currently two ideas on my mind right now; they differ by the philosophical take, okay? So, without further ado, here they are:
UNPRUNING APPROACH
Blizzard returns the ranged weapon slot, which allows players to wield melee and ranged weapons at the same time. This solves the issue of the core Hunter identity in two ways ā
A) it gives ranged weapon and ability to MSV, thereby making the core Hunter class identity stronger in MSV
B) it gives strength to the spec identity/existence of MSV by giving the Hunter class as a whole more melee abilities (currently, the only melee we get before level 10 is Wing Clip. That is not enough representation for MSV before level 10)
NEW, CREATIVE APPROACH
Adreaver brought up this awesome ideas few weeks ago, but it seemed like I was the only one to respond to his idea. He suggests that MSV gets a talent on the talent tree which, when picked, allows MSV to use any weapons (by allowing all the MSV spells to be used with either ranged or melee weapon). This is a great idea because ā
A) it allows people to choose between a melee or ranged playstyle without breaking the rotation
B) it would double down on both spec and class identity of Hunters being the experts in wilderness survival ā itād follow that survival experts would be able to pick up and use any weapon, yeah?
Adreaver has a long post outlining how this could works. Later, when Iāve come back from lunch, Iāll dig up this post for you guys.
The point is, we need to stop arguing over what we already know is unlikely, and we need to start focusing on creative solutions ā we can (and need to) think outside of the box!
Anybody else got new ideas? 
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Here is the Adreaver post I mentioned earlier!
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That is a pretty cool idea, but I suspect it still wouldnāt run well with the pro-RSV group since they mostly want the gameplay backā¦ Plus I think then weād have an issue with a lot of players saying that they have to play ranged or melee because ranged or melee performs better.
That includes me too! (The gameplay part, I donāt mind if Iām losing DPS by being ranged.) Like I said a few posts up all I really want is that satisfying Lock and Load playstyle, and that can easily be accomplished by a talent saying:
āSerpent Sting DoT damage has a % chance and triggering any trap has a 100% chance to reset the cooldown of Wildfire Bomb.ā
I wouldnāt know where the talent fits in since I think a full rework of the SV talent tree is in order. Also Wildfire Bomb should do a lot more of our damage.
Or we could do both that talent and Adreaverās suggestion and suddenly we have a hybrid of RSV and MSV!
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I think I should of said disappointing in how it has been handled by Blizzard. They wanted it to stand out from the other two specs so the changed it to a melee spec that was different, but was too complicated for some players. So, they went back and changed it again they did simplify the rotation and removed the button bloat; however, they borrowed too much from BM to make it more familiar, and in my option just made it a melee version of BM.
Ion stance on the whole change was the specs played too much alike but then they went and just added other abilities from another spec, so then what was the change for?
Then with Shadowlands they will be adding even more of older Hunter abilities that just add more range to the spec, which in the end just puts MSV back to a form of Hunter that will be closer to it Vanilla form, a range spec with a some melee attacks.
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Iāll admit I donāt really mind if the spec is melee or ranged, but of course being a ranged spec is nothing but a benefit to most players and would fit into the whole Hunter fantasy better. (Like I said before, Hunters only ever used melee as a last resort while stuck in melee range.)
Considering the fact that a fully ranged SV is almost certainly never going to happen again they might as well return the ranged weapon slot and baseline Raptor Strike, Wing Clip, and Muzzle. That way technically all Hunter specs have access to melee and the theme is a bit more unified.
Plus maybe then Ion will actually double down on the melee fantasy more if itās part of all Hunter specs in a way. It really does just feel like melee BM thematically since the BfA changes.
I think returning the ranged weapon slot, Wing Clip, and Muzzle as extra Hunter utility would help our weak utility and actually help MSV fit into the Hunter theme better.
Or Iāll get lit on fire for suggesting more melee on the Hunter forum. We will see.
One of my biggest issues with his speech is that he made it seem like SV suddenly has sooooo much identity when most of the was removed moving into BFA when they introduced so much BM elements into SV.
If they want to make SV feel more likes spec they need to remove the BM elements and introduce or center it around its dots. Peroidt. If SV had the identity it needed most of our damage would come from our dots and 10% would come from our focus dump melee ability but it doesnāt
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It seems like Blizzards new strategy is to double down and then get confused when they get hate on something the majority of the playerbase told them not to double down on.
I love melee survival, do I prefer ranged? Yes I do, do I expect it to come back? No. Either way they need to fix survival and make some of the talents baseline, we rely on certain talents such as mongoose bite to even compete. I have seen no changes to survival besides adding killshot which is cool but probably wonāt do anything for surival in the long run.
If blizzard wants to treat survival as their niche baby at least give it some love or something, I donāt want to go into shadowlands with a spec that has practically no changes compared to other classes during the āGreat Unpruningā
In the long run we all love this game, we complain because we want to see it improve. I know many people complain about MSV vs RSV but it doesnāt matter, we get what we get but at least improve the spec in shadowlands.
The difference is explosive shot would grow bigger if used correctly. You had to maintain extra dots, have a very specific rotation and stay combination to play at high end and flowed smoothly from one spell to the next. Sustained dmg, ramp up. It used all of its spells through out the fight(as far as rotation Ba, serpent sting, explosive shot, ccobra shot, cobra shot(refreshed serpent sting on primary target and gained focus)arcane(watching for LnL procs) LnL explosive, explosive, arcane, explosive) arcane shot falls away at 20 percent to be replaced by kill shot. Rotation continues from there.(while some of the dmg was front loaded, most of it was dots and maintaining rotation(and not focus capping because once you messed up the rotation, your dps tanked)
Marksmenā¦Aimed shot/chimera. And thatās about itā¦ Mostly built around nukes(aimed shot and chimeraā¦over and over) until you made it to kill shot range.
Rotation was aimed shot, chimera(serpent sting was a dps loss) steady shot, steady shot( to maintain a haste buff and grab focus) aimed shot, arcane, steady, steady aimed shot chimera, steady, steady
I wasnāt active with beast mastery after I started playing surv and marks but it also had kill shot range.
(Which having a good execute was a good thing for each spec)
Now. Marks a survival played very similar as fast as having to double cast for focus. But survival did it so much better because the rotation was smooth, the passives worked inside the spec to maintain dmg and keep you constantly attacking.
Marks had and has, long as s aimed shot cast, right in the middle of the rotationā¦that makes you feel bad because one, it doesnāt always crit, and twoā¦youre sitting there waiting.
Honestly, and I hate to say it, for marksmen to thrive, it needs to canabilize ranged survival completely. It needs chimera shot or explosive shot back baseline. It needs lock n load to proc instant chimera or explosive shot. It needs serpent spread and serpent sting, baseline.
Where as for ranged survival to thrive it neededā¦haste scaling dots. And tuning.
Uh noā¦ This is the worst idea. If you bring back RSV at the expense of MM, youāre not solving any problem. Youāre just changing which group of people is angry.
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I meanā¦ Iād rather lose MM than MSVā¦
Hah, Iām joking! But seriously though MM could really use a rework. Iād rather have Legion MM over the BfA variationā¦ I wonder if something based on the mechanics of RSV for an MM rework would be popularā¦?
I actually enjoy the BFA version of MM more than I enjoyed the Legion MM. Legion was the only time in the history of WoW I actually stopped maining MM.
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Itās a pretty subjective thing but I do think youāre in the majority since I never hear anyone say they like Legion MM too 
Personally I dislike both the Legion and BfA version of MM so I really would like to see another rework or a reversion to how it used to play in WoDā¦
Hmm, you know I think I just donāt like post-Legion Hunter in general. Ironically the only spec I like is MSV now, and even that I got gripes with.
agreed. they tried too much with the spec in legion but instead of removing the bloat and focusing on the spear hunter theme, they made it some weird BM-lite with some ranged skills.
iād just prefer at this point that they drop the bombs and crossbow and add stuff like spear throws and more melee attacks. having a spec with tons of ranged skills that needs a melee weapon just feels dumb and pointless to me. if i wanted to do ranged stuff with my pet i have BM for that.
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I want to like this and hate this at the same time. I loved RSV during MoP and WoD. It got me off my Druid and I raided on the Hunter for the first time.
But now I have hand problems and health issues. Now I really appreciate the slow cast play of MM. Itās quite relaxing to play and I still feel I can perform well enough.
It felt really good around 450 ilvl, but didnāt gain much between 450-465. It seems scaling is an issue. Especially with corruptions and essences.
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LnL / Explosive Shot were my favorite interactions ever in WoW. Explosive Shot felt amazing to hit, and being able to hit it often with reliable proc rate made the spec feel amazing for years.
Thatās the most disappointing part of all of this at least for me.
That being said, Melee survival is something I have fun with every once in a while to do dailies with, but the over saturation of other melee specs in the game make it really hard to find a reason to take a melee hunter over a ranged one practicallyā¦
As for the spec itself, it feels incomplete as others have noted.
The 1 interaction it has baseline is AoE only. Which makes the rest of the toolkit feel bland.
I donāt like Mongoose Bite and moving it to the talent tree only lost us a talent slot rather than give us a choice. Itās the best talent on the row by far. Either update it to allow for some sort of short term extension via frequent use or remove it.
Kill Command needs to go too, or rename it Flanking strike and combine the benefits of both. Give it the 15yd leap and the dual damage.
Serpent Sting is fine, but needs something. Maybe taking the Azerite Trait Latent Poison and make it baseline.
Wildfire Infusion needs to be baseline too.
For my last point, please for the love of Elune, just give the class a baseline Melee/Ranged slot and give all specs Raptor Strike/Wing Clip. This is both visually nice (IMO) and a way to make the class feel like MSV and Ranged attacks are all worth it. (This is probably not a popular opinion, but I think it solves problems).
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Way back when I was raiding in WotLK and early Cata, I was one of two main hunters in the guild. I raided SV , mostly (BM on a couple fights where it was feasible/useful), and the the other raided MM. Neither of us had any trouble differentiating MM and SV. They had clearly different play styles and each of us had firm preferences about what we liked.
Iāve made my peace with not having ranged SV, anymore, since Blizz has been pretty good to BM in the intervening years, but I have to say SV just doesnāt feel like itās providing a lot compared to the other specs.
When I play SV, sometimes I find myself saying, āMan, I wish I was in BM right now so I could ā¦ (pick some BM strength).ā
When Iām in specs other than MM, I sometimes find myself saying āIād rather not have to manage a pet right now.ā
But Iāve never found myself in BM or MM and wishing I could be in SV for some benefit that SV provides. For me, thatās the real indicator that SV as it stands is lacking.
Iām not saying to make SV a ranged spec. again, but if itās going to be a melee spec., it should feel like thereās some reason I should pick it. Something cool it does that BM and MM canāt, and āis meleeā isnāt that thing, because I can stand there in melee range on BM or MM when I need to. (remember when you couldnāt? Remember when stacking on the tank sucked?)
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