Initial hunter talent thoughts

too many 2 and 3 point talents that make it feel like we’re not able to pick up core functionality of our spec.
several passives and abilities that exist currently have been decoupled and are 4-6 point investments to pick up instead of 1-2.

some of the new talents are fantastic and wish we had them ages ago.
many of these talents however feel entirely empty without the current mm tier set or tier 18 set, no lego’s, and are 10+ talents to do basic things.

obvious issue points -

  • Core hunter

trailblazer and agile movement should be merged into a single 2 point node that gives 6% movement, and then 30% outside of combat; not 5 entire points for the literal principle that hunters are supposed to be known for… mobility.

the left/middle seems to be designed for soloing content and while i like fogged crystal and stuff, these things are effectively worthless in 99% of the content, these shouldn’t take up nearly 1/3rd of the base hunter tree for only the very casual players who want them, it needs to be replaced with actual decision making as currently there’s like 3 nodes we take 100% of the time, or “you don’t need this atm” and pick up other stuff that also doesn’t matter for the desired content that’s niche.

improved mend pet 3 points? my brother in azeroth what? scare beast 6 talent investment for a niche CC? i bet warlock gets fear baseline and isn’t a niche CC that takes 6 points to get something we can just use freezing trap for.

improved traps … just cooldown reduction? 100% tar trap size? flare legendary?

nessingwary’s trappings, 3 points? this is too expensive for this, and is currently entire ignored as that’s too many points for stuff very little players actually want; please review the legendary powers usage of this… why in the forsaken frozen hells is this even back a 3rd time to be ignored? absolutely out of touch talent.

chakram vs death chakram … lmfao this isn’t a choice node, this is a meme “daniel” “the cooler daniel”
seriously… who in their right mind would even compare the two let alone pretend one is worth picking over the other?
IMO this would be a good spot for the flare legendary with some point cost reductions to the left side to get here, and while you wouldn’t need to take the left side, it would certainly make the flare burn better as a choice; an actual choice.

  • Beast mastery

barbed shot’s DoT still doesn’t stack or roll over on itself making any and all “barbed shot damage” or excessive refunding of charges of it entirely pointless because it’s just dire frenzy; i understand this was meant to be a pseudo old explosive shot short term dot on 2 targets ability but it does so little damage it’s not worth doing (and this coming from a horde HoF before HoF existed raider).
please please please make this stack on itself finally =(

aspect of the beast - 50/100% … does this mean 20% leech apology with ferocity as a “haha oops we forgot you guys are squishy and have little healing since survival STOLE spirit bond” this is a nice buff to this talent as a whole, but i’d rather prefer BM just has it’s original passive healing spirit bond, not the bastard melee child who stole it from the pet class that has less interaction with it’s pet than the bomb throwing idiot.

thrill of the hunt and dire beast should swap places.

the very top of the BM tree is stacked so heavily we need to pick everything but 1 node because of stacking damage onto pets and kill command absolutely no exception.

Beast cleave should be 1 point, not 3. we literally don’t have AoE without beast cleave and kill cleave.

in for the kill - this has been a problem since forever, and all the core hunter abilities are the same… none of them actually work with mastery which makes them effectively worthless to cast over the THIRTEEN TALENT POINTS that all buff pet damage and kill command.
it’s not like kill shot gives a separate dire frenzy or pet damage buff after using and until something happens kill shot is questionable to even pick up as bm atm.

stomp 2 points is weird cause we’d never just take 1 point in it, and there’s several interactions that i don’t know if they exist or not which is why this post isn’t 70 pages long as it’s not till alpha and numbers needs to be adjusted that i can give any feedback on the subject.

Wailing arrow as BM same as kill shot / in for the kill… mechanically it is opposed for the player character to use abilities as mastery and only buffs pet damage.

dire pack is too expensive of an investment to give 10% per dire beast on abilities that hit like wet noodles.

  • Marksmanship

this is a mess. whoever designed this probably thinks we’re somehow keeping the tier set we have atm with multiple 4+ talent point choices to get abilities and passives that are as of currently entirely skippable for single target due to how expensive an investment it is, but also needed for AoE making many core functionalities too expensive to pick up because there’s 10 additional talent points needing to be spent on multiple rank nodes instead of making new and interesting talents and decisions we have LEGION REWORK 2.0 where we have a second coming of chopping up our passives into different talents AGAIN then telling us we have a choice in what we can pick while also entirely telling us to get foxed because we still don’t have the full fledged old passives such as critical strikes with aimed shot refunding half it’s focus cost with careful aim.
additionally to all of this… we S T I L L do not get a ranged DoT spec with mobility aka real survival playstyle thru talents when it costs you literally freaking nothing to make the tree wider in order to facilitate the old ranged survival spec inside the talents now because it’s not a 3 choice row system anymore. i mean ffs cmon are you even trying? did you think we had forgot? did you think we had forgiven? you get the point.

outside of the extremely obvious “the cost of nodes is too dam high” i’ll more or less address the core philosophy of the tree as there is simply too much to say at an individual node level currently.

aimed shot - too much focus (ba dum tss) on this doing damage and synergizing with so many things, yes it is the core of what marks is as of BFA, but not what all hunters want to be slammed into playing forever as a “pretend sniper” ; the point of talents is OPTIONS and we have 2… AoE and Single target. not a damn thing about this talent tree is a playstyle option.

you either play hard cast aimed shot, or hard cast aimed shot, or hard cast aimed shot but it’s 3-7 targets. absolutely genius design guys.
light/heavy ammo i will not discredit as one of the better talent designs but i want to make this VERY clear… marks is not a 80%+ health single target hyper niche spec anymore, and we do not have the option to be that either. there is not a world where we don’t take AoE/cleave talents when there is literally always aoe/cleave for dungeons, most raid fights, and thinking it’s okay to have the “option” of a pure st build for like 2-3 raid bosses a tier is some serious synthwave out of touch mentality.

if marks has barrage/explosive shot it doesn’t excuse us from not being able to use trick shots effectively with no volley, no rapid fire, and a 6 point investment to get what is currently literally just 1 talent that’s been dead all expansion as it too has been split into two nodes.

there is no option for us to cast aimed shot on the move, no option to replace aimed shot with explosive shot, or have aimed shot be instant again even if it was a super expensive talent investment to do so.
lock and load should be a 3 point node that’s 5,9,14% chance, followed by another 3 point node of aimed shot has 33% 66% 100% reduced cast time.
careful aim should be a 3 point talent of “you do 40% more damage to targets above 90/80/70% health” and not just aimed shot.
bullseye needs a branching path to focus refund on critical strikes that’s also an extra 50% critical strike chance against targets above 90/80/70% health so we can have the historically highest player percentage playing a single spec and not just because it was overpowered design that not a single hunter asked to be reworked back.

we also do not have black arrow, real explosive shot, and no option to even remotely have that playstyle again, you can VERY EASILY add a further right side of the tree that follows a more DoT based playstyle that changes aimed shot into old explosive shot, black arrow that procs lock n load down the tree as well, and FFS can we get serpent spread as a node under serpentstalker’s trickery instead of this garbage can chewed up bone version of what we’ve been asking about for 6 god damn years now… arcane shot and multi-shot applies serpent sting. that’s it… it’s not a big ask, and we shouldn’t need to “compromise” on a game that you can literally just balance the numbers because we want to play a certain way that you’ve removed.
it’s not like we’re asking for aspect of the fox back. we just want to play how we used to be able to with still giving the “stand and aim” sniper enjoyers the option to also enjoy their desired playstyle too and not have an either or situation which has lead to the resentment of most of the hunter playerbase.

  • survival

it’s still not fun and is still just a bastardization of beast mastery and “wouldn’t it be cool if we had melee hunter like back in the good ol days” … no. no it wouldn’t. this should’ve been a 4th spec from the start and not removing most hunter’s favorite spec, stealing and removing abilities from beast mastery to give to this half engineer half melee bm trash in the expansion all about spec identity.
this is such a far cry from trying to capture the “rexxar” vibe because you can’t even dual wield.
what exactly IS melee hunter’s identity? it sure isn’t “survival” because you’re throwing explosives while being right next to them and near your pet which has more interaction between them than the literal hunter spec that’s all about caring for their pet beast mastery.
the sad thing about survival is at this point if marks could just play like old ranged survival and it was fun we’d stop caring… but it’s just never been the case. it’s still nothing like a hunter, stole passives and abilities from another spec without being remotely unique in any sense, and it’s not enjoyable to play because of that.
the only reason players are playing survival now is because it’s 3 buttons to do the 2nd highest damage in the game with minimal effort… not quite as braindead as warlocks and their abusively overbloated utility kit which is what leads me to the final point.

  • mobility, utility, survivability

hunter for a very long time was the “hunter job” class. it’s literally still called a hunter job because only hunters did it, we babysat the crybaby warlocks and mages who didn’t want to do it and we took pride in it.

now we don’t have mobility, utility, or survivability.
we’ve long since been the squishiest class in the game and liability to take to progress because of this.
we don’t have any unique utility anymore, you can argue “but binding shot is so good” there’s a million other AoE CC’s that are just as good and better, it’s not a separate DR or with ring of peace for example absolutely no DR.
mobility… the original reason we don’t have survivability has been completely stripped away from us to the point we spend more time standing still to cast aimed shot than most other casters while never getting any damage reduction for doing so.

aspects as aura’s were removed, most of which are entirely gone while what we have left is mockeries of what they were.
iron hawk for our DR? gone.
fox? “too overpowered”
cheetah/pack? it’s now a sprint cooldown instead of optional active, and “griefing” despite easily being able to have trailblazer effect other players.

wailing arrow is not silencing shot.
frost trap (now tar trap) used to be relatively rare to have an AoE slow, now everyone and their mother has one. DK’s death and decay is the best at 90% slow, and takes a few seconds till it’s on par with tar trap, and is effectively just a root with a much lower CD.
freezing trap? lots of classes have permanent CC like this now, and most of the time is just used as an extra interrupt if they’re even trappable.

so what actual less common utility do hunters bring?
lust/hero… specifically tied to a pet that 2 other classes can also cast, and if you’re playing marks you lose 10% damage for casting it, and then if u want to dismiss your pet it now has a cast time because “haha hunters and pets have a connection” … as if lone wolf wasn’t an indicator that maybe we don’t as marks?
i don’t understand why marks isn’t able to have 10% leech and lust without a pet if lone wolf is taken (as it’s a talent now, not baseline even tho clearly you’re taking it since damage stacking)

survivability of a not that very mobile but still people think it’s mobile class -
turtle, a fake immunity that doesn’t clear debuffs or prevent damage already existing on you and you can’t attack during it.
exhil - a long as hell CD to heal for 30% health, you can cast mend pet with a leech pet and heal this much basically.
(when no pet only) or tenacity - THREE MINUTE cooldown for 20% DR for 6 seconds.
feign death is useful sometimes and most other times it’s only used bcus of a mistake.

that’s it… compare this to warlock which isn’t meant to be mobile.
the post is already long enough to go through that total bs and with all the utility, survivability, mobility that warlock has it should NEVER be top damage but is literally always top 3 without fail… hunters don’t actually care to be top 3 dps as we were supposed to have high utility, and 100% mobility as the trade off for not being highest dps and because we’re SUPPOSED TO BE mobile we had less survivability.

none of this is addressed in these talents. we are currently and going forward seem to remain just a worse warlock/mage.

12 Likes

We desperately need someone designing the class who actually plays it because it’s evidently clear from the last 3 expansions that we don’t have that.

15 Likes

Agree with a lot here. It is quite clear that whoever is on the hunter design team doesn’t play it and doesn’t know what to do with it/how to design it. Or perhaps they are just very bad at their job? or overworked? The last couple of expansions it’s been a roller coaster of bad to very bad design choices. I honestly can’t remember one clear good improvement over the last 3 expansions. Just seems like they overtune one spec per tier to keep hunters happy because parses… and try to band-aid the whole thing with borrowed power.

According to blizzard themselves this expansion is all about the classes/specs and they literally focus the whole xpac on… professions, UI revamp and the talent trees. To say that they put the majority of a EXPANSIONS resources on these trees and give us hunters this MM and above all survival trees is a kick in the groin to anyone even considering playing hunter.

I feel like a damn repeater but I will say it again. What ever you might think of MSV or RSV or the mess that is the class tree I think we can all agree that the survival tree needs Loads and Loads of work. It’s so unfinished it’s not even in an alpha state.

Some facts:

  • Survival is a 32 talent tree, already the smallest by quite some margin. And to make matters worse 31% (10) of those talents are 3-point picks who All are X% numerical talents. 19% (6) of the talents are 2-point talents but most of those are CD related or X% numerical talents.

Then the rest is a few returning abilities or just stuff we already have. Nothing new! (Spearhead is actually just a charge with Coordinated assault built in, and coordinated assault is garbo, does nothing)… literally nothing!
To make matters worse there are several instances where we have several talents doing The Exact Same Thing! This should be absolutely forbidden! It just screams lack of effort from blizzards side!

  • Facts: Sweeping spear (3 points, 5/10/15% damage increase to raptor/mongoose and carve) does exactly the same as Spear Focus (2 points, 5/10% damage increase to raptor/mongoose). Both are to the right side of the tree.

  • Facts: Improved wildfire bomb (3 point, 8/16/25% dmg increase to bombs) and tactical advantage (2 points, 10/20% inc damage to FS and WFB) does the same thing… but these aren’t even on the same sides. If you are bomb build and want tactical advantage for those 20% (!!) dmg increase you’d have to go all the way over to the other side of the tree.

The fact we need to spend 5 points (10 if you use both raptor/carve and WFB) just for numerical bonuses is a Joke! We have 2-3 point talents in weird places that do literally the same things. Unacceptable. The spec will feel So bland with WFB and raptor strike/mongoose strike and FotE/Spearhead. That is literally all you get. The rest is just fluff from the class tree. This is not a spec! There is zero synergy, zero interactive gameplay. It’s not even a build! And let’s not get started on the whole laughable attempt at some Kill Command ->Kill Shot build. It’s a 3% chance per KC to get a KS… There is No way to have a build around that. Survival will just be some melee with almost exclusively ranged abilities from the class tree.

So, we have the smallest talent tree with, by a huge margin, the most dead/pointless talents that as an added bonus takes 2-3 points! (Lunge is a funny example, we pay 3 points to get the same range increse as rogues get from their 1 point talent…).
This becomes increasingly infuriating because it gives us 2 very weak builds that are a mess (the wildfire bomb build is even “done” halfway down the left tree… the row 10 picks are 2 abilities that synergies only with mongoose/raptor spam. And the third ability on row 3 is just a joke since it extends Coordinated assault… which is a dead ability).
All this while a lot of specs out there have a few 2-point picks and zero or perhaps one to two 3-point picks! Outlaw for example have 45 (50% more!) talents, which of zero is a 3-pointer!

Survival, besides personal preference, needs to be worked at A ton ton. It is in a Pre-Alpha state at best. Remove the X%/DR talents and we’d have perhaps half the amount of talents and we’d only be able to use barely half of our talent points to create “builds” (they are so weak and bland I honestly don’t want to call them builds).
The tree needs to be cleaned of lame filler 2-3 point picks that just give X% damage/DR and it needs to get rid of those like 5 talents completely focused on KC and it needs to get two viable builds fleshed out with synergies and interactive gameplay. And Then we can get some good passive 1-2 point picks to flesh it out. Until we are more like a 40-talent tree! I would love to see Wildfire bomb get tossed (because nothing is as anti-thematic as a hunter throwing grenades at melee range…) and instead get an AoE build around cleaving flanking strikes with our pet (we already stole KC from BM so let’s just steal beast cleave already?) or some serpent sting interaction with cleave/butchery or just Anything else than grenade tossing lunatics at close range…

TL;DR Survival hunter is in a pre-alpha state and needs to be completely reworked/remodeled and added to. It needs an enormous amount of work compared to the other classes/specs to even feel like worthy of alpha testing. I pray to Huln that we get some acknowledgement of this from the blues. This is Not alpha ready!

6 Likes

I would say overall that the class tree is well below par. There is some horrible lateral issues at hand and how they force you to take utility when you really shouldnt need to needs fixed.

As for the spec trees, ill come out and say it. Whoever the hell created them is a complete incompetent intern who has never spent a minute playing hunter. Bm’s tree has multiple talent issues, mm is what exactly, and surv is the biggest trainwreck garbo tree ive ever seen.

Like, who in there right mind decided it was fun to have everything increase dmg at 3 ranks while putting a useless kill shot talent near the end of the bomb side without giving us the bomb leggo? Why put the completely horroble neswingary’s apparatus leggo on the class tree when it is probably the worst leggo out there. Why break up exhilaration and force the hunter to have to put points into the advanced talent for it to heal your pet? Why is 60%+ of the entire hunter trees, short of mm, about kill command when blizz has literally confirmed that pets have horrible technical issues?

Blizz really needs to rework ALL of the trees. Period.

4 Likes

I agree that the hunter class tree has issue but overall it is ok-ish. It needs work but is ok for a preview tree for alpha testing. Very front loaded, lacking quite a few things that would be logical to bring back and for example steel trap as a row 10 pick…?
It has issues but “just” need some adding, some moving around and some touching up.

Marksman

  • The tree is overall ok if you ask me. There is some weird interactions between abilities but those things are hard to understand before we actually get to test it in alpha/beta. The talent tree has quite a few talents weirdly placed or even straight up wrong. This also is manageable. Overall I’d say the tree is ok if you combine it with utility and some nifty stuff like explosive arrow from class tree. Needs work but is alpha-viable.

Beast mastery

  • This is probably the best out of our spec trees. And is better than a few other specs out there, like DK/Druid. The tree is in a good alpha state and seems to actually have some build viability and it’s not As much of a mess as MM. It needs work and I personally am not happy we will be forced into the same lame barbed shot/beast cleave gameplay we’ve had for I don’t know how many expansions. It’s unintuitive and boring but it’s not broken or completely lacking. It’s got synergies and a rotation. Needs some work but is ready for alpha testing.

Survival

  • This is the one. If anyone Ever would ask me to prove Blizzards incompetence I’d show them this talent tree. The list is too long to take it all up here but in large strokes:
    The tree is the smallest of all trees with 32 talents. 10 of those are 3 point X% numerical talents. Another 6 talents are 2 point X%/DR talents. Then we have the 5-6 purely Kill command related talents, who are all rather useless because a) kill command is our focus filler ability and b) the synergy with Kill shot is so weak (3% chance) that it’s laughable, wasted talents. Then we have 3 talents to get harpoon back, that is 4 talent points.
    So, to summarize: after all those dead talents we have 8 talents left… 8 talents!! to try and make a build from. That is pretty much wildfire bomb, raptor strike/mongoose with the old Fury of the eagle and the “new” Spearhead and then, of course, 3 talents (5 points) that are the gutted Coordinated assault…
    How can anyone, especially someone working for blizzard look at this and think “Hey this is fine. It’s just alpha testing…”. I mean alpha testing… what do they want us to test? Strip the 50% dead X% talents and the ones just to get a gutted coordinated assault and harpoon back and we have like 5 actual talents left to pick and test.
    Survival hunter is Not ready for Alpha-testing!!

Edit: I forgot to mention under survival that if anyone wants Any proof that the survival tree is lacking (beyond the statistics already mentioned) then just look at the talents Sweeping spear+ Spear focus, they are almost Identical X% damage increasers. Or Improved wildfire bomb + Tactical advantage, again almost identical X% damage increasers. This is such a lazy and obviously flawed design I just hope they rework the whole tree. However much I love survivals theme and lore I just can’t understand how we’re supposed to be able to play that abomination. Like mentioned above, there isn’t even anything to test…

3 Likes

Surv is a complete dumpster fire.

You are exactly right and then some. This wasnt a well thought out tree. This was a “well we basically have come to the end of the idea tree for surv so we are just going to fill it with dead talents, and oh btw, lets NOT use the bomb leggo but instead use a complete garbage and pure crap deadly duo talent instead.”

Someone seriously needs let go after they build the surv tree.

At this point, just PLEASE put it back range. They have made melee surv as bad as its going to get.

6 Likes

I mentioned it in the Wowhead article as well. Forcing a player to put two points in a predecessor to unlock a successor would not be recommended. Have them unlock with the first point then, if the player chooses, they can add a second point for increased effect. This will allow players to create builds that are well rounded if they choose to.

As some have mentioned, there are a few talents that should be swapped around. For example, the RF focus generation talent should come before the Streamline talent.

Having Keen Eyesight and Chimaera Shot after several BM talents forces a MM build to take talents they will not use. The main tree, row seven, has Improved Traps [NNF]. However, the tree doesn’t include Freeze Trap. Does this mean it is baseline?

1 Like

Not entirely sure what you mean here.

You can go from Kill Shot down to Counter Shot, then head for Tranq Shot, and then continue to the choice node for Intimidation/Hi-Explosive Trap, and from there it’s just straight down to Keen Eyesight and Chimaera Shot. If you pick H-E Trap, you won’t need to take any BM talent to get to those two.

In short, yes. If you check the link, and scroll down on the page and click on the hunter tab, it will show you what they’ve presented for hunters. Incl what baseline abilities and effects we will get to keep.

HE Trap is actively bad in certain content, like M+. For a Lone Wolf MM Hunter speccing for M+, you are literally forced to take at least one talent you actively don’t want to get to a key throughput increase.

Good points. I was kind of curious why they put Multi-Shot where it is in the MM tree. I understand this thing they’re doing by separating ST from AOE talents, but if you notice on the BM tree, MS occupies a place right at the top. I know for my own use, MS is helpful when spinning flags in battlegrounds. Just a minor point.

Few things regarding BM as its the one spec I feel I might understand a bit.

Barbed shot bleed stacking would be nice, I dont think it would make it a busted spell but I can kinda see arguments against it with its only becoming “relevant” when you reset barbed shot a lot and talentiing into build where this happens makes the main “skill component” of spec completely irrelevant as with barbed resetting “constantly” you are in no risk of dropping the stacks.

I disagree on switching dire beast and thrill of the hunt. Thrill of the hunt I can see taken every single time meaning it needs to be easily accessible. Dire beast seems less interesting as we arent exactly a burst spec to get advantage of 8s haste. Of course if dire beast tuning is out of place it could be completely busted too. Call of the wild might make us bursty depending on tuning but I dont see that 8s haste having huge value on it.

BM tree could really use reducing amount of points probably more than I have mentioned on these forums. Cause essentially you run into problem of not being able to pick kindred spirits(also blocks killer command) as its purpose really is just QoL for most parts. So going for killer command doesnt make sense as thats 4 point investment, when basically what competes against is training expert, which if my napkin math is correct does as much/more dmg with 2 point investment than killer command does anyway resulting in killer command not getting picked. This has nothing to do with if its a good or bad talent and everything to do other options just being better.

Wailing Arrow is in a wrong spot imo, switch that and bloodshed in places and you get more cohesive m+ build option. Cause realistically it costs too much to get WA for damage and you wont exactly need silence outside of M+ much.

All the “dire” talents seem something that get very little play in my eyes, the passive bonuses for pets and basic aoe just eat the point pretty effectively. I imagine the dire talents are intended for ST situations and with tuning they might work for it - problem is with how many points we are “forced to” spend up in the tree taking them is hard to justify even for ST. Also if this is the case, stomp should never be in front of them, just like it shouldnt be behind bloodshet, which is ST talent while stomp is for AoE.

Imo some shuffling or talents, some condensing of ranks and BM tree is pretty great.

1 Like