She’s agreeing with Daelin, Nilocor.
Yes. Again, so i think we agree.
Ah. Then no. No I can’t say that I can. Not until recently, with the more unfortunate characterization becoming more prominent in current WoW as we know it.
In the unnamed masses, who have neither names, faces or descriptions, I’d say the war had a consequence of roughly an appropriate amount. The Horde had enough for its holdings and Orgrimmar proper. That’s it. Everyone else is either dead or unable to fight.
And, as a consequence of waging war on the other superpower of the world, the Alliance has a combined might to launch one siege on a capitol, win or lose.
But the characters that make up and tell the story are still gone. This unfortunately, much to my displeasure, isn’t a story about the strength of ‘we’ as a collective, where none of us are as strong as all of us, but a story of heroes and villains.
… so Tirisfal Glades being blighted into no-man’s land and being uninhabitable for anyone (living OR dead!) doesn’t mean anything to you? Because it certainly does to me. I like Warcraft, I’ve leveled 1 of every class as an excuse to view the starting stories of each society. But Gladwell was my first and I truly adored Tirisfal Glades (more when Brill was still a repurposed village that was ransacked than when Brill was made into a spooky scientist’s lair, but, cool all the same).
Yes. God King Rastakhan. Vol’jin doesn’t even come close in terms of important lore characters for Trolls and we get to meet Rastakhan for one (1!) patch before he dies and is replaced with Talanji, who, I feel strongly is a cardboard cutout in comparison.
That’s actually what I’ve been trying to touch on this whole time. I’m glad we’ve hit the hole in one. It doesn’t matter if their hatred is valid or not. Daelin’s hatred had valid points. Garrosh’s hatred had valid points. Grom’s hatred had valid points. Jaina, Tyrande and Dannath hatred has valid points. At no point in my argument was I trying to say they were wrong for holding their stances.
My argument was, through and through, that the message they’ve been pushing with their story is that hatred is self-destructive and will lead the character to consequences. So far, in WoW as we have played it, this has only continued to occur to Horde characters, not Alliance characters.
A power that the characters within the story hype up as “this power will tear her apart from the inside-out! I hope I can steer her on the right path once more!” said Calia and [Spoilers for 9.0.2 Ardenweld.].
That’s, again, the problem. It’s inconsistent. Jaina and Tyrande’s situation is a 2 for 1. Their resolution will not come with consequences for their characters. Jaina came through on the other side just fine. Tyrande will exit Shadowlands without so much as a scratch. I am willing to stake money on it.
Actually she changed her mind in the end. And even Katherine rebuked Daelin.
1 Like
So… so like- The second war i- Okay you know what that’s fine agree to disagree.
An appropriate genocide?
Funny thing about that, in the new Exploring Azeroth book, Flynn and Shaw visit Tirisfal and they say that while the center of the zone is scarred from the battle, and is currently unoccupied, the belief is that it will, eventually, recover. (Calia and Lillian Voss visit the zone in 8.3 as well, if you’ll recall)
Do me a favor and try getting to Teldrassil without Zidormi. Teldrassil, btw, includes not only Darnassus,but all of the towns, hamlets, and starting area. Deathknell looks fine. How’s Shadowglen?
The person mentioned in passing a few times in quests before dying in the second patch of the expac we meet him in. Alright.
Or the characters could learn the errors of their ways and grow. Isn’t that better? Developing characters? You say you’re “Asking for consistency” but this is sounding more and more like “Demanding punishment”. Horde characters should be allowed to grow, too!
“Consequences” does not necessarily mean “Painful death”. There are other ways to experience consequences. Jaina spent time in a place NAMED “The Realm of Torment”, being haunted by her past and her regrets in BFA. In Shadowlands, she’s currently held prisoner by the Jailer in literal WoW hell, being tortured. Tyrande is homeless, and is obviously traumatized. You’re gonna tell me these characters aren’t going through stuff?
1 Like
If you’re wanting me to say that internment camps that hosted slavery in various forms and even gladiatorial combat is anything more than a smidge more merciful than just flat-out execution, then, no, I can’t say that was any more of a kindness. The only person who believed that they’d one day lose their bloodlust and might be possible neighbors in the future was Terenas Menethil and even then all he got was a half-way compromise that still ended up in barbarism.
I’m not gonna’ budge on that. The Horde had a valid want to liberate themselves and try for a new life.
An appropriate consequence to what happened.
So is Darkshore, the outer territory from Teldrassil. The outer fringes of Tirisfal being in-tact is a nice touch, I guess, but the core (like Teldrassil!) is absolutely destroyed and the central strip from the shoreline to the walls is scoured. No more Brill, no more decrepid farmlands.
But, I strongly feel that Teldrassil’s not gone forever. It wasn’t even apart of the original gathering of the World Trees. Staghelm and included company had it grown after the third war.
And, I mean, if there were any time to regrow, I’d say it’s somewhere in the “now”-ish. The potassium in ash is actually great for growing trees. And on a scale like Teldrassil, the quantity of ash is suitable for what it may require. Heck, the roots are still there.
On a time scale that it’d require, it’d certainly be comparable to, say, the time it takes to rebuild a fortress, or, refurbish one that had been destroyed.
Food for thought. And maybe some gardening tips, if that’s your thing.
He’s a big boy.
Yes! It’d be nice. But it’s a very, very strange double standard where characters under a red banner just can’t seem to see any of their personal issues through and end up going maddened with power and die before they can grow to be a character. It’s a very cool (read: not) phenomena. What I’m asking for in consistency is: either it claps everyone’s collective posterior, or garbage like Garrosh post-Stonetalon stops happening. (which it didn’t. We just had ANOTHER expansion based on it, beat for beat.).
Not particularly, no. But the point of the discussion was that these characters don’t really have anything bad that happens to them as a result of their shortcomings, whereas on the opposite side of the story, any glaring flaw to any single character’s personality is magnified until either they’re the appropriate size to become a BBEG or become a loonie and die for their stance.
6 Likes
There camps didn’t happen until after the war, and there were basically no other options but alright. When they were locked up the Alliance had no way to send them home, and didn’t understand at all what had happened to them, only that giant green murder-monsters had come screaming through a magical portal and started slaughtering villagers.
Of course they were valid to want to be free, afterwards. But the Alliance was also right to lock them up in the first place.
Again, agree to disagree. That’s fine. Being locked up is getting off easy for attempted genocide. 'sall I’m saying.
You don’t consider lives of the average folk valuable in a story?
Nope, nope, absolutely not the same thing. Teldrassil was an entire zone. The Alliance demolished a town and Sylvanas destroyed her own city. The ENTIRETY of Teldrassil is gone.
And if you do wanna talk about Darkshore, well, The Horde plague-bombed the largest town in that zone! So techincally the Night Elves had one zone slightly less damaged than Tirisfal, and another (Teldrassil) that was utterly annihilated. “Keeping score” probably isn’t a good idea for your point, here.
It’s a bunt-out husk, trees can be regrown, maybe, but not rebuilt. It also can’t be blessed by the aspects again, because they’ve lost so much of their power and Ysera is dead. If Archimonde exploding on Nordrassil cost it the blessing, Teldrassil’s immolation definitely did too, which would mean more issues with corruption.
I’d love to be wrong on this, but i think this goes beyond a green thumb.
You’re massively overrating Rastakhan lol. He wasn’t even ever a Horde character.
I have literally never disagreed with that. Why do you keep talking to me like I write the story? This entire thing has been about how Danath is discussed via the fans.
I think a trip to a place called “The Realm of torment”, where your memories and regrets manifest to haunt you, PROBABLY counts as “Something bad happening”
4 Likes
the !@#hole we need
1 Like
To be fair, Nilocor said “the story of Warcraft,” not the story of WoW. Which is cheating a little, IMHO, because it includes the first two RTS games before the big retcon about the Horde’s backstory and motivations.
Okay, but what about also locking up your children, and their children, into the indefinite future?
1 Like
I don’t know much about the guy, honestly. But seems to be the exact type of morally grey character.
His backstory and personal experiences with the original horde and orcs made him have prejudice towards the Horde. Which makes him a character that as a Horde is a clear villain, since he is racist towards them and whatnot, but at the same time, his legacy makes him a hero of the Alliance.
Is kinda like war-mode jaina. We can side with her in hating the horde, and the horde can hate her as a villain.
3 Likes
Not every horde, just every horde member that actually gets screen time. Rommath has gotten 5 minutes of screen time since his debut in BC… and he was planned to be a villain we killed during the cata prepatch until it was cut, so doesn’t exactly help your point.
Im not speaking in absolutes, or black and white, but thats the truth for the majority of Horde/alliance characters. Geyara has a thing against lightforged draenei… and shes a battle hungry orc… dangerously close to getting Garroshed imo.
and… twinbraid? Thats the first example you can come up with? I didnt even know who he was until I clicked the link. If you’re scraping that far down the barrel…
2 Likes
Garithos was killed.
The alliance guys that exploded the goblin ship were killed.
Daelin was killed.
Some more racist figures on the Alliance have been dealt with.
And I don’t see any character on the horde currently that has prejudice towards any specific race of the Alliance besides Geyara with the Draenei.
1 Like
The fact Benedictus died(they literally had the same storyline at the time) and he got spared should tell you Blizzard seems more interested in tell a story they want rather than making sure we have mirror rather then focusing on the tit for tat story telling for the factions.
I’d also poibt out Rommath has been feature in both Legion and MoP.
And she isnt dead either and right now she is a faction leader. Hopefully her little encounter with Sylvanas will change her mind.
Maybe because most of the big wig “racist” character had a change of hear. Garrosh and Sylvanas dont seem like character capable of the same self reflection and change.
My point is the Alliance as a faction have been less interested in war and many have strived for genuine peace. The same cannot be said for the Horde. If the Horde has had more war mongers it is because it was part of its nature(a nature it will hopefully change but lets see).
1 Like
I mean they couldn’t just let the kids run free, could they? And there was no option to send them home.
It was never meant to be indefinite. Terenas Menethil decided on the camps because of the hope that, one day, the orcs would lose their thirst for conquest.
I have absolutely zero proof of this, but I think the camps going from Danath’s control to Blackmoore’s was a big part of what corrupted the system, and caused the problems we see in WC3.
2 Likes
The 2nd war is a situation in which you are wrong. Orcs completely destroyed multiple infrastructure and destroyed lives, why shouldn’t humanity put them to use rebuilding what they destroyed against their will? They gave away their rights when they decided to commit mass genocide.
Besides what is right/wrong isn’t objective, how can one argue from a logical standpoint that killing someone is less ‘evil’ than slavery?
That’s a point of a lot of debate.
They could simply hold that causing ongoing suffering is worse than short term suffering.
“He has a reason to be racist” is a pretty boring personality tbh
2 Likes
Agreed! Good thing that’s not his whole personality. He’s an accomplished, honorable warrior. (Kilrogg Deadeye was surprised and pleased he engaged in such an honorable duel)
He’s a shrewd tactician and leader, shown by his victories in khaz modan, and survivng on Outland for 20 years.
He cares deeply about the soldiers under his command, shedding tears for “his boys” who were killed in Beyond the Dark Portal.
And having your life experiences influence your biases seems like a pretty realistic thing for a character- or a person in general.
I brought some of those things up in the post but I guess that’s not as fun to boil down into a quip 
1 Like
Will be able to do that either this expansion, or next. Blizzard tweeted about trees regrowing in a thread with nelf players talking about the world stump.
So that’s an acknowledgement that you can’t right now, right?
And I hope you’re right, but remember when Theramore was going to be built into a garrison?
1 Like