Sylvanas has no doubt done a whole lot of things that would be against the Geneva convention. Some things would be obvious such as the use of chemical weapons, there isn’t a real world law stating that raising the dead would be a crime (Obviously). But still, I’d imagine that the prosecutors would try and find a way to charge her with something in regards to that. I’ll list all of Sylvanas’ crimes that community often points considers as ‘war crimes’ below:
Blighting Gilneas
Raising the dead and enslaving minds. (Forsaken quests in Silverpine where you and a Val’kyr while under orders directly from Sylvanas attack the forces of Hillsbrad. As soon as the both of you raise their corpses from the dead, they salute you and swear loyalty to Sylvanas.)
Attacking civilians attempting to evacuate (the quests in Keel Harbor for Worgen.)
Using the blight against combatants in Stormheim.
Killing civilians. (The family’s reuniting in Arathi)
Burning down Teldresil.
Use of the blight during the siege of lordaeron.
Raising her own soldiers into undeath during the siege of lordaeron.
Horde attack against the civilian population of Brennadam.
Use of blight in Darkshore.
Raising corpses in Darkshore.
Destroying towns rather than occupying them. (Auberdine)
More raising of undead (Tandred proudmore)
Messing with Old God artifacts.
Granted, while some of these crimes are obvious in the real world, some of them wouldent be considered actual crimes in the international court of law since we don’t have fantastical things like the raising of people into undeath, or the use of void artifacts. But I’d imagine that if we did have these things in the real world, the Geneva convention would have touched upon them.
Granted, we know the Alliance isn’t as squeaky clean because of things like Camp Taco being destroyed, attacking Neutral ships (The goblin vessel transporting Gallywixes slaves), etc. But this is a thread about Sylvanas’ crimes, not the crimes of the Alliance.
So, I’m going to give you all a scenario; you are the prosecutor during the trial on Sylvanas Windrunner assigned by the UN to charge her with crimes. You’ve been told by your superiors to find a way to charge her for the raising of undead and the use of void magic. What would you charge her with for the crimes stated above?
It would not be up to the UN or any outside faction other than the Horde and Horde alone. Any trial that would be set up would be nothing more than a show trial than anything else.
Trial of Saddam Hussein would be a good read for a situation like Sylvanas. And if you read Warcrimes with Garrosh’s trial it would be similar for in game purposes.
But for the sake of the thread. Only one thing would be charged “14 counts of Crimes against Azeroths denizens.” It is all encompassing instead of trying to put a particular charge on each individual incident based upon the list you already provided.
Yeah, no, that is not how it works. That would be like saying the Nurermberg trials would be conducted under German Law with German Judges, which is very much not the case. In fact, of all 8 Judges to serve in the Nuremburg Trials, none of them were from any nation of the Axis Powers. 2 were Soviet, 2 British, 2 were American and 2 were French. There were German Lawyers serving on the Defense council, but the trial itself was International Law, not German Law.
Using the Nutemberg Trials again as an example, there were four major counts that were defined to be criminal, and charged against several Fascist officials and organizations.
Participation in a common plan or conspiracy for the accomplishment of a crime against peace
Planning, initiating and waging wars of aggression and other crimes against peace
War crimes
Crimes against humanity
All of which, I would argue, apply to Sylvanas just in this expansion, let alone throughout her entire political and military career as a Forsaken.
A little thing I caught when reading Nurermberg trials
The legal basis for the jurisdiction of the court was that defined by the Instrument of Surrender of Germany. Political authority for Germany had been transferred to the which, having sovereign power over Germany, could choose to punish violations of and the laws of war. Because the court was limited to violations of the laws of war, it did not have jurisdiction over crimes that took place before the outbreak of war on 1 September 1939.
If you think any sort of control will be allowed to be handed over to the Alliance or any other ruling body other than the Horde then that person would be sorely mistaken. While likely Bane or Thrall would have friendly ties to the Alliance but because they have an open rebellion against Sylvanas they would not turn over any form of government to anyone else other than internally. Much like Iraq. and much like Vol’jin becoming Warchief.
While I am not arguing your 4 points of what would be the counts of the trial and would they be tried with. The argument can be boiled down to WHO has the right to even put Sylvanas on trial. (not that she would allow that anyways as using the Nurermberg Trials as an example as many of the worst offenders committed suicide in defiance.)
Althought I totally see your reasoning by utilizing Nurermberg as a example. A good one at that. We were not given the information on/if Horde and alliance government has been disbanded due to old god rising. If that were the case then Yes Nurermberg would be a good example of what would happen. Otherwise it would be nothing more than what had happened with Garosh’s trial and it be nothing more than a show.
In the event that Sylvanas is disposed, the Horde will not have much choice as a defeated entity. Still reeling, not only from a War with the Alliance, but a war with itself. They wouldn’t be able to do anything about it.
The Alliance. Notable the Night Elves and the Gilneans. Her crimes have impacted them the most, and it has been a common thing for Israeli intelligence to capture and execute German war criminals.
Even if they would be considered a “defeated entity” they would not hand over control of government. Thrall and Vol’jin made sure of it back in MOP. Saurfang, Bane, and Thrall would do the same. War would just start up again justifiably on the Horde side this time if the Alliance tried to apply to much political pressure. The Orc’s will remember the camps and will not surrender anything to the Alliance. even if we believe they should or they have no choice.
The most that would happen is a Cease Fire Treaty and Sylvanas would be put the sword regardless if there is a trial or not. (Sylvanas would fight to the bitter end and no trial would come from it because she would not be in chains.) From that standpoint Horde would claim that her head should be enough to placate the Night Elves and Gilneans.
“to capture and execute …war criminals.” if your referencing Adolf Eichmann. then it would likely be a thing outside of the Alliance and strictly Night elf or Gilnean act. And they would be tried based on Night elf or Gilnean laws, not the laws of the alliance because Dwarves, Gnomes, Draenei would not be involved.
With Sylvanas, with your logic, we will likely have the trial in Pandaria as it is currently the only true neutral ground to have such a trial. But that will still only be a show and the end result would be the same. If Sylvanas is to be removed from power she will either escape conviction or be put to death. Garrosh 2.0. That is IF there is even a trial to have in the first place.
her punishment should be extreme. 500 Holy shocks, Wiped with Holy enchanted rope, Tar and feathered and then sent to a firing squad full of people from southshore, gilneas and the rest of her victims.
“Let’s ignore everything bad everyone else did and pretend only Sylvanas does bad things in a total vacuum with 0 cause from the aggressive and warmongering Alliance that attempted to assassinate her!”
That’s some thought exercise. Typical of the forums. Only interested in indulging their irrelevant head canon while out right demanding lore to be ignored.
As a prosecutor I would use prosecutorial discretion and drop the charges on Sylvanas. While also demonstrating the legitimacy of her actions. Since Genn attempted to assassinate her, the Horde had just cause on the face of it.
I would then charge Genn with instigating the War at Stormheim, and charge Anduin because he could not control his Alliance. Maybe not have them face execution, but perhaps fines and removal from military command.
Sometimes I wonder why the people of this game take this bad writing so seriously. I know certain users will defend the alliance doing attrocities with real life examples.
This is the main reason why I think blizzard needs to hire better writers or some of the best one from warhammer and go full edgy for a time
Probably they would just use the “attacked her own people” excuse, they do that with most tyrants like Saddam, it prevents creating an us vs them dynamic with the people of the country. History tends to frame tyrants as bad for everyone regardless if that is actually the case.
I don’t think the Alliance or Horde would ever hold a trial in Pandaria ever again . The Celestial’s basically never intended to execute Garrosh based on the outcome of the Trial and always intended to imprision him for life.
The trial would be best overseen by someone like the Lich king who while Neutral would proscute the affected parties brutally.
I was at work before. This seems like a question that doesn’t need a thread since you can just read the list of jurisdictional crimes the International Criminal Court oversees. Genocide is one.
Crimes against Humanity: Murder, Extermination, Enslavement, Deportation or forcible transfer of population, Imprisonment or other severe deprivation of physical liberty, Torture, Rape, Sexual slavery, Enforced prostitution, Forced pregnancy, Enforced sterilization, Sexual violence, Persecution, Enforced disappearance of persons, Apartheid, Other inhumane acts. (Other acts is basically random other bad stuff as a catch all.)
War Crimes: Willful killing, Torture, Inhumane treatment, Biological experiments, Willfully causing great suffering, Destruction and appropriation of property, Compelling service in hostile forces, Denying a fair trial Unlawful deportation and transfer, Unlawful confinement, Taking hostages.
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