no, even then. shallow as it gets.
All of this. Sylvannas isnât too âhardâ for tanks and healers, sheâs too tedious. When your dps drop like flies halfway through phase 2 and you know itâs a total wipe, it becomes frustrating and just not worth the effort.
No amount of gold or runes will make me go âwow, that lfr sylvannas kill was totally worth itâ
Yes, literally yes, this. 100%.
Make it a foolproof wannabe cinematic.
The gear is already a waste of time for most players. Just make it a one-shot and move on.
It is almost this already. Why even have it in the game at all if it is literally a 100% foolproof cinematic? Just make LFR a drop down menu where you can select your loot and skip the pretense of a boss fight altogether.
1 Like
LFR doesnât exist for loot anyway. All the loot it gives is obsolete, and dated by the time the LFR wings open, by design, just so that players donât feel compelled to run it for loot. Even for alts that do nothing but world content, LFR loot is made to be obsolete.
It also doesnât exist to challenge players, or to train them to âstep upâ to raid.
It exists to give people who donât raid a vehicle through which to see the encounter, get the story, and (maybe) complete a quest. Thatâs why itâs in the game, and making it 100% foolproof wouldnât negatively affect that purpose in any way.
2 Likes
100% disagree. If it is 100% foolproof then itâs not the encounter anymore. Even with the gutted version of the bosses in LFR, there is still a possibility, even when remote, of failure. That is a key part of the feel of any raid encounter, and it makes it pointless to include the content at all if itâs just going to be a literal cinematic.
2 Likes
The opâs point is that they cannot find a tank.
Tanks donât want to stick around through multiple ten minute failures. If you leave it as is, people wonât be doing the encounter regardless because itâs a non-starter waiting for a tank.
Also, itâs rather bizarre of you to have such strong opinions on content you donât even touch. Youâre 0/0 lfr for both sessions why even care what it is? Itâs content you donât do.
If the stated goal is to âallow everyone to see the contentâ, I have no issue with it being a full length recording of the world first mythic kill.
In most tiers, players kill the final boss of the tier on this difficulty. Perhaps it should only go from 100-90% or something and a cutscene of the boss full wiping the raid, they can then have loot in the mailbox and everyone is happy.
The loot in LFR is completely irrelevant to the tier as a whole. No one is hard farming Lfr for any specific item (and if they are looking something special like the sylv bow, just make it not drop at this difficulty.)
Lfr isnât an introduction to raiding in the same way normal dungeons arenât an introduction to that content. No reason it needs to be âfull featuredâ and nerfed to the ground.
And a better fix to that problem is for people to stop treating tanks like trash.
This is just as wrong for easy LFR content as it is when people try to claim it for high M+ or Mythic raiding.
First of all, this is one character, so you have no idea whether I do LFR or not.
Second of all, this mindset of unfailable content on demand is toxic for the whole game community, of which Iâm a part, and so it affects me whether Iâm actively using LFR or not.
Itâs the exact same mentality that leads to demands for nerfs to other content, from Torghast and Mage Tower, to dungeons and raids. If there is a constant expectation of victory under any circumstance, then the players get conditioned to expect a win no matter what, and have absolutely no tolerance for anything remotely difficult, and refuse to do anything to improve their play. This is bad for everyone. Not even bad, catastrophically bad.
If the goal is to gut it to the point where it is literally 100% unfailable, then make it a cinematic. Donât even bother with making people push buttons pretending theyâre doing something when itâs obvious at that point that none of it matters. Let them watch a kill and be done with it. They can even make it a solo scenario at that point so they can be even less a part of the community.
2 Likes
I donât know why you think âchance of failureâ is what makes an encounter, since all you really need is to be put in the room with the boss and have them do stuff. LFR usually has major mechanics removed anyway, so itâs not like youâre actually getting the major experience of what it is to, say, do the delicate dance, or anything like that. Thereâs no chance of failure doing the Broken Shore intro, or the Undercity, or the Wrathgate, but those are still encounters for players to enjoy.
Thereâs a difference between watching a video, and being inside a game doing the thing. Thatâs literally why people play games. Having a super-easy version that you can play through is going to be a better experience for players (not raiders) than watching a video, so thatâs fine. Thatâs all the reason required to make something other than a cinematic Plenty of people play games to see the easiest setting, and see the story, and not have to worry about challenge or skill, or whatever, and thatâs perfectly fine. For someone that wants any semblance of having to stay awake, and an intro level of raiding, Normal mode serves exactly that purpose. Normal is no actual challenge, but at least you canât facescroll it, or walk away from the keyboard and come back and still be alive (maybe you can). For someone that wants the ultimate challenge, thereâs Mythic. How easy LFR is doesnât alter that.
Iâve always been a defender of LFR. It IS a good way to get into raiding and see the content. I did lfr when I first started playing and now I have been raiding cutting edge for the last 5 years. Yes, your average lfr group has a bunch of trolls and afkers and people who are the definition of the lowest common denominator. But that doesnât mean that it canât be a relatively useful way to learn how your spec works in a raid environment without needing to meet the standards of a pug, or committing to a normal/heroic guild raid.
Iâd also say the difficulty for SoD LFR is tuned reasonably well. Iâve wiped to most of the bosses for various reasons (itâs also a good way to get your dom shards on new alts). Remember as well that itâs tuned for people who want 213 ilvl gearâŚ
And yes Sylvanas has some aspects that can make it frustrating on LFR. And yes I think tanks should probably be incentivized to do it more to reduce the ridiculous queue times. But I think that the answer should be something along the lines of better ability signaling, improved dungeon journal, etc. rather than just going straight to âdelete lfr itâs for noobsâ. Yeah itâs for noobs, and thatâs fine.
1 Like
Which ones of those are raid encounters?
Exactly. If nothing youâre doing makes a difference because youâre going to default to a win no matter what, youâre not inside the game doing a thing. Youâre doing nothing.
Thatâs what we have. âSuper-easyâ and âcompletely unfailableâ are not at all the same concept. Yes, the mechanics are gutted and the number checks are low enough to generally account for the lowest common denominator, but the fact that it is theoretically failable means it is super-easy, and still at least the skeleton of a raid encounter.
It stops being just âsuper-easyâ when you no longer have even a token chance to fail and basically becomes a cinematic anyway, although a little more insulting because youâre pushing buttons that ultimately have zero effect on the outcome.
1 Like
So? Some people want that. Who are you to be the arbiter of what is supposed to be in the game or not. âRsid encounterâ is not some set in stone thing. It can be whatever the developers make it to be. LFR could be a completely unavailable RP / cinematic experience for everyone to experience story chapters and thatâs fine.
Some people donât care about git gud at all, they just want to play through the campaign storyâs final chapter and see what happens at the end. They donât care about risk of death, or gear ilvl, or the sweet satisfaction of winning a hard encounter. Thatâs not fun for them, and you canât force your idea of fun on them with the hope that they will eventually become CE raiders.
And thatâs what it should be if itâs going to be stripped down to the point where it canât fail. Make it a completely different experience from raiding so these people donât end up deciding that the whole game should be so superficial.
Thatâs fine, a cinematic would be fine for them then. I have absolutely zero understanding of why anyone would want to âplayâ through an encounter they have no control of, but if there is a demand for just watching WoW unfold, then maybe that is the best solution to keep those players out of the actual game content.
But letâs not pretend that they are âplaying throughâ anything if the encounter doesnât allow for a loss. A game has a win and a loss condition. If there is no loss condition youâre not playing a game, youâre watching a story. And thatâs fine if people want that for some reason. I can think of much better stories Iâd rather be watching, but that is certainly subjective.
I have zero hope of anyone in the LFR pool to become an actual raider. The poster from earlier in the thread is an extreme outlier.
Then why are you making so much commentary on it? People are different and experience fun in different ways. Stop trying to tell other people that their version of fun is wrong.
Wow is an RPG. It is a game of make-believe. As someone who has worked with kids for years, you come to understand that there are games that have no loss condition, they exist to create and explore. You donât need risk of loss to have fun. In a creative RPG, you make your own fun by exploring and making friends.
The idea of âitâs only a game if you can loseâ is made up.
My comment was that I donât understand it, but that maybe it should be there if other people want it. Can you define your exact problem with that statement?
Itâs actually part of the definition of the word âgameâ. But like I said, if thatâs what people want, give it to them. Letâs just not pretend itâs raiding. Call it a story queue or something. Calling no-loss condition encounters raids sends the entirely wrong message to the player base.
1 Like
Gonna have to provide some receipts for this one.
This is entirely your opinion with nothing to back it up.
All of them? You got placed into a raid group to do stuff, in most cases come up against bosses. In BS, your raid group handled some minibosses, then you had Krosus. In the Wrathgate â Siege of Undercity, you got placed into a raid group to make your way through the sewers and so on, and at the end was Putress. In Undercity (BFA), it was a bunch of plaguey stuff, Saurfang, blah blah.
Thatâs all a raid encounter is - you get placed into a raid, and do stuff. Whether that stuff is inside Sanctum of Domination, a world boss, the Broken shore, Hogger, Mimironâs train, doesnât change that.
Nooooooo, thatâs not how games work. Youâre inside a game and doing stuff regardless of whether you can win, you can fail, etc. Being in an RPG simply means you control a characterâs actions. You can move around in a game world (e.g. Sylvanasâ room) instead of being at the mercy of the cameraman. You cast Shadowbolts at her, instead of just watching other people do. You can cast the Shadowbolt that kills her, it doesnât matter if it was inevitable. The game offers you a more interactive medium.
Games are not defined by whether or not you have a chance to fail. If youâre going to make up things out of your backside, thatâs on you.
None of this has any bearing on whether itâs a raid encounter.
I have no idea if you were around for the introduction of LFR, and when they were explaining what itâs about. LFR is not for raiders. Itâs a mode whereby non-raiders see an encounter and get the story. Blizzard specifically wanted to make that happen for 2 reasons. 1 is a player-focused reason, that it made little sense to offer story arcs, zone campaigns, etc., and then lock someone out from the ultimate conclusion (e.g. killing the Lich King) based on whether or not they raided. Given raiders are/were a niche, it meant for most players, the game provided an incomplete experience that was always going to be less engaging.
The second reason was pure business. Given the level design, voice acting, development, etc., resources that go into a raid, they were having a hard time justifying all the $$$ if only 5% of people saw the result. As long as LFR exists, they can confidently say that the resources spent on a raid are seen by everyone, even people who donât raid, and continue spending resources on creating raids. They could choose to make this a single-player thing if they wanted, but they still see a value in involving a raid group of random players rather than being single-player, and given theyâre already spending money on the raidâs assets, anything else is perhaps more money and $$$ to develop than LFR is. So theyâve chosen this approach, and whether or not people will/can fail at it doesnât change that.
To be clear, LFR is not raiding. Itâs not even really a gearing mode. Itâs currently a story mode, maybe a cosmetic collection mode if the LFR tints arenât available elsewhere. Thereâs no insult to anyone if it canât be failed.
Easy enough: a form of play or sport, especially a competitive one played according to rules and decided by skill, strength, or luck. (the bold is mine)
My supporting evidence is the literally thousands of threads demanding nerfs for Torghast, nerfs to the Mage Tower, nerfs to every level of raiding. Those threads are coming from people who have been conditioned over the past decade to believe that they should never fail. They pay their subscription so nothing in the game should ever be too hard for them. Anything that supports that mindset is damaging to the game and the game community at large.
Where is the source of this? Because I can give you a ton of popular games that have no loss condition. This definitions feels pulled from your rear end.
Dictionary definitions =/= the study of game theory
This is your opinion, not an unbiased fact.