Make it baseline for Havoc. Replace it with demonic appetite and give us a new 99 talent. It would be pretty fun with the demonic build. It would make the trait eyes of rage fun to play with too.
Its kind of funny that all 99 and 100 talents are fury generator talents.
You could actually make the new 99 talent be what gives immolation aura the 80 fury.
10/28/2018 05:19 PMPosted by WhydYou could actually make the new 99 talent be what gives immolation aura the 80 fury.
But that's really the only point of IA. It doesn't exactly to stellar DPS in and off itself, even in AoE.
I don't see why it needs to be baseline. A talent being compelling doesn't mean it should be baseline. And it's not even uniformly powerful, the Momentum and Nemesis builds take Demon Blades instead. The only significant issue with that tier is that Insatiable is hilariously undertuned and has been literally since it was introduced in Alpha.
I'd also, frankly, prefer if DA just went and died the true death. Running after fragments wasn't a fun mechanic, nor was it fun being forced to move for a mechanic and losing DPS due to overcapping because you were pooling fragments for the Demonic window. Some people still like it, and that's fine, that's why it's a talent. But in my opinion, at least, it's a terrible and annoying talent and I much prefer it being obsolete to it being the only option again.
Make master of the glaive snare baseline.
Switch Cycle of Hatred with motg.
Replace motg with Bloodlet (which includes the second glaive charge but snare is baseline). Tune bloodlet damage to match first blood. Nerf cycle if needed to be competitive with fel eruption.
Switch Cycle of Hatred with motg.
Replace motg with Bloodlet (which includes the second glaive charge but snare is baseline). Tune bloodlet damage to match first blood. Nerf cycle if needed to be competitive with fel eruption.
3 Likes
10/28/2018 07:34 PMPosted by SaulglaiveyMake master of the glaive snare baseline.
Switch Cycle of Hatred with motg.
Replace motg with Bloodlet (which includes the second glaive charge but snare is baseline). Tune bloodlet damage to match first blood. Nerf cycle if needed to be competitive with fel eruption.
Why would cycle be put in our CC tier? Cycle of hatred is a dps throughput talent and Motg, fel eruption, and unleashed power are all CC talents. Cycle wouldn't fit in that tier at all. If you want bloodlet youd have to replace another talent.
On a related note, why do people want bloodlet back? It was a boring dot that you just kept up by using throw glavine on CD. I liked it in pvp well enough to keep rogues from stealthing back up, but other than that I didnt care for it.
1 Like
10/29/2018 04:29 AMPosted by NolarianOn a related note, why do people want bloodlet back? It was a boring dot that you just kept up by using throw glavine on CD. I liked it in pvp well enough to keep rogues from stealthing back up, but other than that I didnt care for it.
I've been saying this for months now. I really don't get it. Other than a ranged DoT for stealthies, it brings nothing that Trail doesn't already. And Trail is honestly better in every way, too. It scales with our mastery, unlike Bloodlet, and does substantially more damage. It has no target cap, and is applied by one of our strongest abilities instead of one of our weakest. Bloodlet was categorically atrocious from a gameplay perspective. It just made Throw Glaive feel slightly less terrible to hit, but honestly, Throw Glaive was (and is) only a thing because of how many empty GCDs Demon Blades forces into the rotation.
If y'all want Bloodlet back for PvP reasons, add it as a PvP talent. If y'all want it back for PvE reasons, please explain how it is in any way an interesting talent.
10/28/2018 07:34 PMPosted by SaulglaiveyNerf cycle if needed to be competitive with fel eruption.
Um, given that neither Fel Eruption or Unleashed Chaos increase our DPS, the only way to nerf Cycle to be "competitive" with Fel Eruption is if Cycle did absolutely nothing at all.
1 Like
10/29/2018 12:01 PMPosted by Xaedys10/29/2018 04:29 AMPosted by NolarianOn a related note, why do people want bloodlet back? It was a boring dot that you just kept up by using throw glavine on CD. I liked it in pvp well enough to keep rogues from stealthing back up, but other than that I didnt care for it.
I've been saying this for months now. I really don't get it. Other than a ranged DoT for stealthies, it brings nothing that Trail doesn't already. And Trail is honestly better in every way, too. It scales with our mastery, unlike Bloodlet, and does substantially more damage. It has no target cap, and is applied by one of our strongest abilities instead of one of our weakest. Bloodlet was categorically atrocious from a gameplay perspective. It just made Throw Glaive feel slightly less terrible to hit, but honestly, Throw Glaive was (and is) only a thing because of how many empty GCDs Demon Blades forces into the rotation.
If y'all want Bloodlet back for PvP reasons, add it as a PvP talent. If y'all want it back for PvE reasons, please explain how it is in any way an interesting talent.10/28/2018 07:34 PMPosted by SaulglaiveyNerf cycle if needed to be competitive with fel eruption.
Um, given that neither Fel Eruption or Unleashed Chaos increase our DPS, the only way to nerf Cycle to be "competitive" with Fel Eruption is if Cycle did absolutely nothing at all.
Bloodlet was amazing for a pvp and is the only way I would care to see it return would be as a pvp talent.
Why Bloodlet?
PvP. That is all.
One of our greatest wPvP talents from Legion.
But also because let’s be real here.
First blood needs competition.
The rest of the row is meaningless because none of the other options come anywhere near first blood.
So yes dark slash or cycle should be replaced with a heavy handed version of bloodlet capable of matching first blood on 1-3 targets so we actually have some choices.
And motg snare should be baseline.
2 Likes
First Blood needs to be baseline. Not taking First Blood feels horribly bad as a gameplay perspective (not talking about numbers at all), to the point that even if the alternatives did more damage, I would still pick it just because the rotation feels lackluster without it. 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2 is boring.
Make it baseline (damage and fury cost reducion) and put something else in its place. If you still want Bloodlet, let it take First Blood’s place in the talent tree, or as a PvP talent as someone mentioned before.
1 Like
Tbh, First Blood or not, the current gameplay is dry and non-interactive, especially when compared to the end of Legion.
3 Likes
Really? It might just be me then, but I think DH (Havoc) plays slightly better now than in Legion. It is one of the few classes that are not in a downgraded version coming from the previous expansion.
Things could be better, of course, and I think that making First Blood baseline is a huge step in that direction.
Compared to the Antorus iteration of Havoc, the main changes are the addition of Blade Dance and Immo Aura to the rotation, and the loss of Demonic Appetite, Feast on the Souls, and Raddons for Eye Beam resets. Those latter 3 arguably raised the skill cap a decent bit, but the addition of Blade Dance and Immo Aura to the rotation, in my opinion at least, makes the spec feel a lot better to play than it did in Antorus.
Exactly. It feels a lot better than before, and that’s the major thing going around for me. It being great at M+ and above average in raids is a nice bonus though.
I 1000% agree with you that the addition of Immolation Aura and Blade Dance feel better to use than just Demon’s Bite, Chaos Strike, Eye Beam repeat. Asthetically, the animation for Blade Dance is amazing and Immolation Aura is just appropriate given WC3 DH abilities.
Gameplay wise, I don’t feel like it adds much though. They are both just extra buttons pressed on in consistent time frame, every ~5-8s for Blade Dance and ~20-25s for Immolation Aura (if priority).
I’m not saying we need to have the Antorus situation again, since RNG could either bless or curse you. But some kind of proc, akin to Rime or Killing Machine, would be much more engaging due to our rotation having an abrupt priority shift.
Well, this is based on our own personal opinion, but I much prefer this playstyle with RNG at a minimum.
I was playing Frost Mage before once more switching to my Demon Hunter and I must say that the procs gameplay was wearing me down simply because I had huge periods of drought where I couldn’t get a single Brain Freeze proc for several casts of Frostbolt.
I don’t really know how consistent Rime or Killing Machine are, but if they are anywhere near Brain Freeze, I am just happy we don’t have it. Havoc fury generation had too much RNG back in Legion, specially when the go to talent used to be Demon Blades. There was RNG in whether or not your AA would hit, RNG in if it would proc Demon Blades, RNG in how much fury would be generated and RNG in how much bonus fury AotHG would generate. There was also the chance that you would critically strike or not when using Chaos Strike in order to refund half of its fury cost.
There was also the Demonic Build where we needed to take Demonic Appetite for it to be optimal, and sometimes this also led so some periods of drought due to bad luck. Because of this, I must say that I am happy with where our rotation is at the moment, but I wish First Blood was made baseline and something else was put in its place in the talent tree.
But how I said, this is just my opinion. I am OK with some degree of RNG to the rotation so that it doesn’t get stale, but I would like it in moderation. If the situation for Rime and/or Killing Machine is closer to this situation of RNG in moderation, then I am willing to give it a chance. Change is always good if it comes as a form of improvement.
1 Like
I don’t see any reason to make it baseline. In fact, instead of wanting baseline crap, Id much prefer to actually add some flavor to our tree. Dark Slash is awful, no one would want to manage their fury so they can pop it and spam Chaos Strikes, and cycle is just crud. Still as long as they leave the fun talent viable I don’t see too much point in complaining much.
And god, our top tier, the big move of awesomeness… OK, momentium was pretty cool. Almost as amusing as people thinking that backflipping and felrushing constantly would be raid/M+ viable. But Nemesis? Really? We get a skill that puts a dart board on the bad guy! When I started WoW, that was a bottom tier hunter talent (and it worked raid wide)… boring as sin. Thank god, they made demonic stronger being the only viable fun talent. I miss chaos blades, even if it was just an extra button to press at the same time as all the other buttons.
Heh, sometimes in Timewalks, Ill use the cloak to enjoy the proc still… even if it still lacks any flashy showing off.
Momentum is more or less viable again, and that’s awesome. Immo Aura IMO still feels like it doesn’t belong in havoc to me, since it is really only used as a fury generator rather than the impactful AoE damage and threat generator it is for vengeance.
Dark Slash clearly needs some sort of change to make it more attractive. Beyond that, the spec is really in a very good place, with multiple viable builds changing playstyle. The CC row is close to perfect - there are interesting and attractive uses and trade offs for all three talents in different aspects of the game. Trail of Ruin is also Bloodlet’s obvious successor, and superior for all reasons mentioned.
Maybe would consider swapping Immo Aura with DA to mix things up, much as that would cost the meta build in arena. But really, Havoc is surprisingly good considering how I thought things would be back during the prepatch.
That would leave the Demonic build with the choice between DA, which was annoying as hell in Antorus back when it was useful for more than just fury, Demon Blades, which is strictly antithesis to Demonic, since you can’t reliably generated fury when you specifically need it, and Insatiable, which is simply boring as hell and undertuned as hell. No thanks.
While Immo Aura being useful mostly for fury is a bit odd, I’d much rather it than the above swap. The only swap I think would be reasonable would be to Immo Aura with Felblade, retune Immo Aura for competitive AoE against Blind Fury, and then make DA also deal a burst of AoE damage for each soul consumed. That would make the first tier a combination AoE and fury tier, and the second tier single target + fury (might make sense to swap those tiers as that point, too). The AoE tier would have a choice between an active AoE on a CD, augmenting Eye Beam directly, or RNG-based but more consistent AoE. The single target tier would, just as currently, have a choice between an active generator on a CD, a passive augment to Demon’s Bite, and a super passive replacement for Demon’s Bite.
The Demonic build would trade Immo Aura for Felblade (most likely), and the Demon Blades build would trade Felblade for Immo Aura. Net effect is that Demonic’s AoE goes down a smidge (and it’s already hella strong), and Demon Blades gains AoE, one of its notable weaknesses.
1 Like
I’m not sure if you guys no this but for rbgs Immo Aura is great for spinning bases cause you continue to do aoe damage even though you’re ccd. This doesn’t work if cloned but clone isn’t long enough for a cap so you should be ok.
Its not in meaningful content. The majority of fights in mythic raids are movement sensitive, and in m+ the movement is more necessary to maximize off time while moving in and out of 1 shots.