Especially in SL when it no longer gives fury.
I personally will not be putting this crap on my bars.
It won’t give fury anymore? What’s the point of it then? Tier 2 is supposed to be about fury generation, having that choice there becomes a non choice, basically.
I don’t know what the point is, a standard demons bite will deal more damage (and generate fury). It’s pretty bad what they are doing to DH’s in SL.
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There seems to be a misunderstanding here. Immolation Aura is now baseline for both specs, but it doesn’t give Fury in its baseline form. We still need to talent the Fury generation, which is pretty BS on Blizzard’s part anyway.
There is no misunderstanding that baseline crap that costs a gcd is baseline crap that costs a gcd.
Either put the fury gen back on it to make it worth a global, or delete it from the game, nobody, I mean nobody, is going to talent into it for fury gen.
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That was meant to be towards the second poster.
And yes, I agree that it’s useless without the Fury generation and that talent should be baked in, that’s why I say it’s bs on Blizzard’s part.
Since it’s baseline, use it when there is more than one opponent?
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It is going to be worth the GCD with 100% certainty as Xaedys even did the math in another topic to prove it. It’s just that it’s completely lackluster without the Fury generation which it is why we even take the talent in the first place.
A 30s cooldown being more worth than a Chaos Strike is hardly something to be proud about.
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This. Even without the fury, the AP coefficient is sufficiently high that it’ll be worth casting for the damage alone at all possible levels of mastery.
That won’t necessarily make it a button that feels good to press, but it’ll be a DPS loss to leave it off your bar entirely.
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Immolation Aura by itself is decent AoE.
Heck, it’s good single target, too. It does more than twice the damage of Chaos Strike (before mastery) over the duration (134.6436% AP for Immo Aura, 62.5% for Chaos Strike*). Even without accounting for fury, Immo Aura is worth using over Chaos Strike until you reach 115% mastery. Since Immo Aura doesn’t cost fury, however, it actually takes a bit over 300% mastery before Immo Aura gets pushed out of the rotation even in single target (I did the calcs in another thread and am a bit too lazy to lay them out here again, but I’ll do so if someone asks).
* So, Chaos Strike is weird on AP. It is the only ability that we have that has a separate damage event for mainhand and for offhand. While most abilities use our combined AP, Chaos Strike has a strike using mainhand AP (35%) and then a second strike using offhand AP (55%). However, if your mainhand and offhand weapons are the same itemlevel, this is mathematically equivalent to dealing damage equal to MH_AP% + OH_AP%/2, which in our case, is 35% + 55%/2 = 62.5%.
This can be confirmed by whacking a target dummy with both Chaos Strike and Demon’s Bite while naked and using a pair of low-itemlevel masteryless weapons (I use the green glaives from the order hall). Your Chaos Strike will should deal (62.5% * 1.144) / (45.279% * 0.667) = 236.75% as much damage, summed between the two hands, as Demon’s Bite. The 1.144 multiplier on Chaos Strike is for base mastery, and the 0.667 multiplier on Demon’s Bite is for the 33.3% armor DR for NPCs (well, most of them, but at least target dummies stick to this).
For confirmation, I just did this myself, naked except for said green Order Hall glaives. My Demon’s Bite hit the boss dummy for 574 damage, and my Chaos Strike hit for 760 and 597, for total of 1357. 1357 / 574 = 2.364, which is well within the rounding envelop of the 236.75% calculated above.
Note that you need to go to Wowhead to see the proper tooltip on this. Wowhead properly lists the tooltip as Slice your target for [(35% of Attack power) + (55% of Attack power)] Chaos damage, with the 35% and 55% referring to MH and OH AP, respectively. WowDB (ie. MMO-Champion) has stupidly made the decision that when tooltips look like that, they should simply add the two AP elements together, so their tooltip lists it as 80% AP, which is highly inaccurate. While adding the elements together may work for something like Blade Dance (which uses combined AP for all 4 strikes), it does not work for abilities that independently strike with each hand, since the OH AP coefficient has to be halved before being added to the MH one.
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It looks cool and it’s a classic Demon Hunter spell from WC3. Come on now, you can’t NOT use it.
Even then, Fury generation should be baked in. Didn’t they want spec fantasy not to deviate too much from class fantasy anymore? Vengeance’s Fury generation is baked in.
It is a real dong-move to give us the ability, but keep the reason we took it in the first place as a talent option. This does NOT feel like a talent at all.
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It’s being split in two, the damaging ability will be baseline, the fury generation will remain a talent. Kind of invalidating making it a baseline ability.
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So we’ll keep using the same talent then. Thanks blizz
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Unless you run demon blades/felblade
Ya, I don’t deny in the slightest that splitting the ability and locking the fury generation behind a talent is the most unabashed slap in the face that Blizzard has ever delivered to Havoc. The fury generation is such a central part of its rotational role. It needs to have it baseline, period, in my mind. I’d rather the talent reduced the cooldown on it (which would still increase fury per minute).
Actually, that could work really well, too. Bake in the 50 fury over 6s (or over the full 12s, I don’t care) into the baseline effect, and have the talent halve the cooldown. Net effect is the same 100 fury per minute that the talent currently grants, but it serves as a concrete upgrade rather than a minimum requirement.
Also, Insatiable needs to go die in a fire, please.
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I got curious and tried to run numbers on Insatiable vs Immos Fury Gen. I probably made a mistake somewhere, so please let me know about that.
So when we just keep the extra Fury in mind, we need to use DB at least 10 times during Immo Auras CD in order for Insatiable to be on par with the other thing. Insatiable gives on average 5 extra Fury per DB.
Now we also have to factor in the extra damage that DB does when we have the talent, which is 20%.
45.2790.20.67 = 6.0372
So that’s 6.0372% extra AP per use of DB.
Now, I’m not sure if I’m drawing the right comclussion here, but that’s about 9.65% the damage of a CS.
With an average cost of 32 Fury per CS, this extra DB damage should be worth 3.09 Fury, so with the real Fury generated by Insatiable Thirst on top, we are at 8.09 extra Fury per DB us, effectively.
50/8.09 = 6.18
This shows that you need to use DB 6.18 times while Immo Aura is on CD for the talents to be equal to one another.
Again, I probably made a mistake somewhere, please let me know about.
I’ve not run the numbers through thoroughly. However, your numbers for CS assume 0% mastery. Since the floor is 14.4% (with 0% rating), this places the fury equivalency of the damage at 2.711 per DB, reducing the total to 7.711, and thus the minimum DBs to 6.48.
And note, that’s the floor. The more mastery you have, the higher that raises, approaching but never quite reaching 10.
In any case, with a cooldown of 30s, even at 6.5 casts, that’s a maximum interval of 4.62s, which somewhere around 3.5-4 GCDs. That’s actually not as bad as I expected, as that’s a fairly reasonable rate of usage. SimC, even with a Demonic Appetite build, has ~29.1% of our time spent on Demon’s Bite, which is roughly 1 in 3.44 GCDs. You’d only need about 12% haste average to hit that.
Incidentally, this doesn’t change a ton with realistic mastery. Even at 50% mastery (~1400 mastery rating, way more than any sane DH would want at the moment), that only reduces the fury equivalence to 2.06, which requires 7.083 DBs per 30s, or an average interval of 4.235s. Again at the 29.1% time spent, that would require roughly 22% haste average across the fight, which is easily reached (~1500 haste rating), and would be if Furious Gaze wasn’t so severely depressing the value of haste on gear.
So numerically Insatiable is actually pretty comparable to Burning Hatred. Insatiable is still unreliable and bleeding boring, but I guess it’s comparable.
The problem is that right now, Demon Blades competes with the whole Immo Aura, which does somewhere between 1.3 and 1.5 CS’s worth of damage (depending on mastery) and generates 80 fury. Based on the above fury equivalency, 1.4 CSes is ~45 fury, so that’s 124.8 fury per 30s. We know, given the values before Corruption came into the mix, that the Demon Blades/Felblade build did comparable DPS to the Blind Fury/Immo Aura build without the RPPM distortion of corruption leaning it towards DA. From this, we can surmise that Demon Blade itself is worth somewhere in the ballpark of 124 fury per 30s (though it’s hard to judge exactly whether Demon Blades or Felblade are the more dominant contributor to that arrangement, and thus what Demon Blades when just considering that row in isolation).
Since Demon Blades has not been changed at all in SL thus far, that means that Demon Blades is at least twice as potent as the other two on that row.
Edit: actually, I just realized that the Insatiable numbers are off, because Immo Aura’s CD scales with haste. So Insatiable is a loss against Burning Hatred period. The floor requires it to be used on 32% of GCDs to be better than Immo Aura, and we only use it on ~29%. Now, granted, that’s with DA, but since that talent looks to be by far the strongest on its row so far in SL, that can also be taken as an assumption.
So TL;DR Burning Hatred is just as passive, by adding fury generation to an ability that’s already part of our rotation, and also better than Insatiable in all circumstances. It’s also worth noting that this talent tier is degenerate as hell. It has two options that simply passively improve our fury generation, and one option that turns all of our fury generation into passive generation.
What 
The Actual 
Do these devs even look at their talent trees before they ship them?!
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Honestly, considering they seriously tried to push something like Essence Break, I don’t even think they care anymore. Giving Immolation Aura but retaining the Fury generation as a nerfed talent option just makes me think they are ducking with us at this point.
Insatiable Hunger adds as much flavor as Nemesis: none. It’s completely underwhelming, boring and undertuned. There’s just so much stuff in our talent tree that needs to go and give room for something that’s actually decent.
Our talent tree just looks like a complete mess with so many underwhelming and useless options that even a newbie that just takes the time to read for 2min can tell they are worthless.
If you look at the trends on each and every 12 bosses of Mythic Ny’alotha you can see that First Blood and Demonic are taken literally 100% on every single boss without a semblance of competition on their respective rows. How can anyone look at this and think this is ok? This has been happening ever since BfA launched for First Blood and around 90% for Demonic maybe.
Talent trees are in a dire need of an overall rework. It’s just too bad Blizzard doesn’t want to commit to anything as major as actually fixing stuff at the moment. Some of the stuff that needs to be addressed urgently:
- Burning Hatred needs to go baseline
- First Blood needs to be baseline or we must be giving something equivalent for our ST rotation and I still think the Fury cost reduction should be baseline even if we get something else
- Demonic being baseline would also make it a lot easier for the devs to work on balance
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