I'm stuck on Tyrande's bizarre, vague line to Calia in the SL entry quest at the Frozen Throne

The line in question is, essentially, Calia speaking up about how the war is over and then Tyrande shaming her about the harm “her kind” has done. Calia, who was not even Forsaken during the events of BFA and arguably still isn’t, who was sheltering with the Alliance until 8.3, and isn’t really entirely Horde, either.

I get characters with prejudice are a thing, but generally, when you write prejudice, particularly with someone who is angry and righteous, you’re going to want to show how their world view has twisted. If it isn’t petty, meaningless hate then it needs a sort of logic to it. If they want to write that Tyrande has a hatred and prejudice against undead now, that’s fair, but that’s not really what’s in that line, right? It doesn’t seem like they committed to that?

If Tyrande were to say something to the effect of, “The Horde shelters undead, clearly something is broken in undead that makes them murderous,” but y’know, more angry, that would be an interesting development! She certainly has a pile of evidence that undead in this setting seem to get real murderous real fast. It also means she doesn’t trust her former sisters who are now Forsaken kaldorei, which is also a bit of a grey area given history and promises interesting conflict between her and other kaldorei who might be more sympathetic.

But…does she believe that? Her line was so vague and so nonsensical, and pointed to the least sensible person it could have possibly been pointed to, that I almost don’t know what information to take from it. Was it just a throwaway “we need Tyrande to sound angry” line that we aren’t supposed to read into?

Why is that line so clipped? What was the thought that went into writing it?


(Commentary): Probably this.


Presumably a Forsaken seems to be the term used for any undead(excluding death knights or those loyal to the Scourge) who maintain their cognitive functions. Even Faol considers himself a forsaken.


I thought the entire point of the Forsaken is that they were forsaken by something/someone

But now it kinda seems like even the Alliance are fine with them. Except maybe Tyrande? I can’t tell anymore

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That all changed way back when Tiron sent a letter covered in the brightness of the light with a golden ticket in it to Varian. The lore got really wonky when that whole concept was thrown in the trash by the acceptance of the undead.

Years later and people are still smashing their heads on the wall trying to figure out why would the undead join the Horde when the Alliance will accept them with open arms and hugs. It was a weird decision that had a cascading effect on the lore for years.


This is how I feel about all Horde races in general, lately, especailly Tauren, who have been victimized by the Horde more than the Alliance at this point


I’d point out the Alliance MIGHT have accepted them(and as shown by the Gathering some did, many others didn’t) but after the whole Wrathgate I doubt many in the Alliance were in any forgiving mode. Especially not the current leaders at the time. Varian, Tyrande and Genn would all oppose them trying to rejoin the Alliance.

I’m still confused as to why the night elves who were raised by the valkyr as undead suddenly acted as if Tyrande had betrayed them and happily flew off with their murderer, Nathanos. That is just terrible writing.


I agree 100%

Cdev have scrambled for years trying to explain why the undead join their enemy’s faction when a simple “they’re not liked/wanted” could have sufficed but alas years down the rabbit hole and lore buffs are still thinking MC.

Edit: I understand the need for Alliance DKs but it could have been a long lasting INTERESTING item of contention within the Alliance.

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I’m still stuck on why Calia is even there, much less her talking.


I honestly doubt it would have been too interesting. Look, nearly every expansion since Wrath the Alliance has been adding “less then savory” elements to it. First we had death knights, then worgens, then Demon Hunters, then void elves and Dark Irons. If anything the Alliance has been moving toward “use of necessary evil” since wrath with their employment of rogue and warlocks.


The reason is that leaders from both factions were taken, so both factions met at the Frozen Throne with Bolvar to discuss what to do next from the epicenter of the disaster and Calia is there because as one of the Forsaken advisors she partly represents them, too. When you first log into SL, Bolvar tells you this via floating head text.

Her position as advisor is still weird and fairly forced but if you take that into account then sure, it makes sense.

You’re right, but we both know that nothing had hit the Alliance as hard as the Scourge since the Horde and I don’t see them getting free tickets into the Alliance.


I mean they didnt totally get free tickets, at the very least people did throw bananas at them :grinning:

Ok bad joke asides, I would just like to think most people were too busy dealing with the Lich King and the Horde to truly care about the death knights(plus they happened to have a perchance for doing dangerous things and succeeding in service of the Alliance so there is that too).

Also the Alliance happens to be pretty good at hiding their true feelings about people points at how void elves are treated when they enter the cathedral and do maintain a veneer of cordiality.

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I see your bad joke and match it with; the Desolate Council is dying to enter through the gates of Stormwind.

At this point everything is getting pinned on Sylvanas and with her gone what’s stopping all those families from reuniting?


Welp, looks like the writing of Shadowlands lives up to the high standards of BfA. That line can go alongside Rexxar’s “she killed too many” and similar headscracher gems.


Besides the meta reason that she’s a Golden creation, Calia keeps putting herself forward as someone who, to whatever capacity, represents the Forsaken (whether they ask her to, or not).

Which, to the point of the thread, is why Tyrande’s remarks never struck me as odd. If she’s going to stick her neck out and proclaim to speak for the Forsaken, she’s going to have to square with the things the Forsaken have done.


I think meaningful sidebar hate is good for the story; otherwise everyone comes off as the same boring character. I hate to see things like all the Horde characters go from clinking beers in the pub; cheering for the heads to the Alliance to marching through the streets of Org together holding hands with the King of the Alliance.

Its just too soon I need some type of build up other than Sylvanas screaming you are all nothing. I mean the Horde was extra into slaughtering the Alliance like 2 seconds ago.


I am assuming this is like datamined or ptr stuff that isn’t in game or live or other wise actually the case quite yet? I suppose it can still be clarified if it isn’t live yet.

As far as what is being said, I would have to see the exact wording and quote to attempt to divine the meaning. I hoped someone would have posted the exact wording in this thread.

From the information in the OP, Tyrande could mean a Menethil when she says your kind. But, I am hesitant to look too deeply at things that aren’t actually implemented.

I don’t think that she is. Golden isn’t involved in actually setting up the meta narrative of where a given faction is going to go. That’s a group effort from a different department. She’s on cinematics and of course at that time, books. Light Zombie Calia would not have been her decision alone.