Ilvl Squish. Nerfs are Never Fun, Buffs on the Other Hand

I’m not. And where?

I don’t have the ear of the devs, wtf? I literally stand nothing to gain, you nut.

I totally agree. I’m discussing my opinions, not designing a game. What you think doesn’t “matter” either! We’re just talking.

What consent are you talking about? Do Classic players need to sign a consent form that I don’t know about and somehow wasn’t made to sign?

You don’t replace every piece of gear in SWP?

Yes

Inaccurate and insane nonsequitur.

Is your argumentation strategy to repeat the same nonsense over and over in hopes that your opponent gets tired of circling back to the same nonsense over and over and dips so you can have the last word and think you won?

Cause sheesh, it just might work!

No I don’t.

Yeah man, I advocate changes I agree with and advocate against ones I don’t. What are you doing exactly?

No I said you take no changes too literally, and my interpretation of no changes is “no changes from Vanilla design”. How did you miss that.

It doesn’t.

Yeah that’s not happening though. No changes has been over since the start of Classic, and I’m not gonna hold onto something that doesn’t exist.

Your energy is like the “while you were out partying, I was studying the blade” incarnate.

Trying to misrepresent my argument as limited to my perception as opposed to what was written by Blizzard themselves is disingenuous.

Says the person who’s been disproven on his main account and thus follows me around with the stated purpose of vexation. If I needed therapy I certainly wouldn’t be getting it from a narcissist.

Losing what, exactly? Not arguments, you’re proof of that.

You’ve constantly vied for changes. You agree with Blizzard and for reasons that amount to just “I like them”.

So then why advocate for changes?

Hypocrisy or are these quotes fake and not you saying you “agree” with a degree of changes being presented?

Except the changes you want. I’d appreciate laying off the gaslighting.

Nope, but what I’m saying is not based on “what I think”. What “I think” is that the change to Scourge Strike in 3.3.x should be reverted. What I “think” is that UA shouldn’t stack with MS. What I “think” would be to tone down arp scaling. Is that okay to change? Absolutely not. Why? Because that’s not what we all consented to when Classic was made. We all agreed, for better or worse, that no changes was the standard because then opinions become the method of measurement as opposed to history.

Blizzard’s “opinions” shouldn’t matter either - but they do because they’ve lied, and you’re okay with this lie because they’re in-line with the changes you like. That’s pathology.

Consent is implied when you give money to the party that is demanding it. Classic demands time and money to play. You give it and can do “the game”. “The game” was marketed as no changes. This is majorly the identity of Classic, a:

Old version
With no changes to preserve the aforementioned.

Everyone agreed to this. If they didn’t, they wouldn’t have forked over the subscription (money) nor the time (leveling 1-60 and playing Classic). To turn around and say, “Ok, we’re not doing that anymore!” is a betrayal of your word and their investments.

You don’t replace every piece of gear from Uld w/ ToC either. VN healer hammer, for one.

So then you refuse to see my rationality because it would ruin your argument. That’s called a strawman.

This just in: You think lying is okay then.

Coming from someone who constantly needs to be reiterated on for refusing to acknowledge the angle of someone else’s rationale, apparently everything I say needs to be repeated for this reason. Maybe I wouldn’t have to clarify if you understood the difference between pathological lying and “someone being upset with changes just because they’re changes”.

Yet you stated above you want to “rip the band-aid off” - which is a change, which is what Blizzard promised not to do back when the game launched.
So you are in favor of some changes, thereby some lying, or none at all. Which is it?

Your “interpretation” of the English language isn’t the English language everyone else uses. No changes is something you take literally. You are not no changes; you say you advocate for some of the changes Blizzard has/wants to make. That means you are for changes. See how I have to keep “circling back” because you keep repeating yourself?

You left out the part where Blizzard’s does.

Yep, and that’s betrayal of consent/what people funded. I know a lot of people who wouldn’t have played Classic if they knew it was just a way for Blizzard to manipulate their word.

Even if it was, better to be a bookworm than a liar - or someone who condones lying.

I don’t have a main account lmaooo

I don’t think you actually believe that. I’ve said why I think the changes are good. You’re just upset and lashing out.

I’m… on a forum… a game forum… discussing the game.

Answer this: Why advocate against changes?

I legit haven’t said that I agree or disagree with changes proposed by Blizz out of hand. My position is case for case contingent on whether or not I think they’re good for preserving the old school MMORPG feel of Classic.

You’re not being rational when you say you reject any and all changes before you even hear them. It’s not a strawman when I’m pointing to things you’ve explicitly said yourself.

Calling me a Blizzard shill is an actual strawman tho.

Nope

Of course Blizzard’s does, they own the game lmao

If you still play the game you are funding the changes and are thereby complicit. Where does that leave us?

And you’ve stated it quite literally boils down to “my opinion”. So it’s not a belief, it’s a fact.

Misinterpreting the question again, are we? I pointed out that you have something to gain, that being the changes that you want. That has nothing to do with free expression on a forum and everything to do with you proving yourself to be a hypocrite.

Because that is not what Blizzard marketed. That is not what people consented to. It is not the stated original intentions for Classic. Therefore doing so is lying to the public. Lying is bad, remember?

Restating that you “don’t agree or disagree” while a literal quote above your text proves otherwise is pretty bold.

“Preserving the old school feel” is subjective, AKA your opinion. No changes is an objective form of measurement that we all agreed upon. Furthermore your “feelings” are, again, in-line with what Blizzard wants to do, so you are agreeing, you just admitted to doing so with your “feelings”. Dancing around the point does nothing but inflate word counts.

I certainly am because that’s what we all agreed to. You do not get to “look at changes” when the mass-consent is no changes. You do not get to alter the terms of a deal that you agreed to based on how you or anyone else feels. It’s exactly a strawman because the point I was referring to was your inability to see the rationality behind denying the integrity of one’s word yet you claim it to be some arbitrary “You’re just against changes for the sake of it” argument. You are misrepresenting my rationale with the intention of making it weaker. That is strawmanning.

You continue to praise them for doing things that are against what they originally stated because you like said changes. That is a shill. Literally.

Shill: One who poses as a satisfied customer or an enthusiastic gambler to dupe bystanders into participating in a swindle.

And here you are signing off on Blizzard’s betrayal of their word because you like what they’re doing, thus trying to sway others with your posts to try and “see another perspective” that is based on lying to the community that was promised something and was promptly prevented from getting it.

You just justified it above that you do. “We should at least look at the changes!” Nope, because that betrays the given word that we all consented to at the start of Classic. Changes mean lying, because lying means that you go against the #no changes ideology that was what everyone initially invested in. So, yes, by endorsing any kinds of changes you are in fact supporting lying.

And who pays for it? Regardless, no, Blizzard promised something (no changes) and now doesn’t deliver. Inviting someone into your house doesn’t excuse the lies you tell them once they’re inside.

On a forum with the ability to voice my dissent publicly before they implement worse ones that will irrevocably destroy any hope of authenticity while some still remains.

“If you don’t like it then why haven’t you stopped talking” is the essence of what you’re putting forward and I think even you know how foolish it is to try and silence criticism.

Almost entirely invalidating previous patches feels bad, particularly when it’s replaced by a 2 room easy raid. It disincentivizes playing the old raids of the same expansion to a degree that I think that newer players will have a much harder time finding a way to run them without GDKP, which is also bad for the game.

I have nothing to gain from discussing the changes. Asking why I discuss them on a forum is senseless. I’m on the forum to discuss things about the game. I’m not on the forums to design the game. My words have no influence over the final product whatsoever.

Yeah, but what goal do you intend to accomplish by advocating against it? I said I stood to gain nothing by advocating for them, and you asked why I advocate at all.

I believe the answer in both cases is “because I like discussing the game, which is why I’m on the game forum”.

I am saying that I agree with the changes mentioned here, not that I agree with every change the devs have ever made. There is a key difference here you can’t seem to grasp. I like when the devs make changes that make the game more like Vanilla, I don’t like when they change spell names and add paid services.

I hope you can finally put that tired non-sequitur to rest.

“Out of hand” means

adverb

  1. Immediately.
  2. Without thought.
  3. out of control

Used in a sentence: Kîllawar disagrees with changes proposed by Blizzard out of hand.

Yep.

No changes is a fantasy.

I am fortunate in that regard, in this specific instance. Not in others.

Nope.

Look up rational. Making decisions and forming opinions without thought is not rational. If you are confronted with a decision and say “no way” before you even hear it, you aren’t being rational.

There is no mass consent. Closest thing is the sub you pay every month, so you consent to changes.

It’s not arbitrary. You’ve said you’d reject any change proposed by Blizzard no matter what.

poses as a satisfied customer

you like what they’re doing

I agree with the change and am a real-life satisfied customer. You’ve soundly established that I’m not a shill lol

I think the only one who feels lied to is you, and yet you still pay the liars. That’s some heavy complicit behavior.

lol you pay to play the game, Blizzard pays to change it. Even if they didn’t change it they hold express control over the implementation. You don’t buy that with your sub.

The only control you have is whether or not you pay to play. And you do. Thems the breaks.

They didn’t deliver no changes from the day Classic was launched and you’ve still chosen to play it. You support liars! SHAME!

Didn’t you ask me in this same thread why I was advocating for the changes? You are extremely inconsistent.

To you. It feels bad to you. Feels good to some people. Who’s right? Nobody. What was promised? No changes, that’s what everyone agreed to. Don’t like it? Why consent by funding Classic then?

Then why do it in the first place?

Rationale is senseless now?

And this “discussion” is limited to changes. You think they’re good. Some think they’re bad. The bottom line is they’re against what everyone consented to at the start. Betraying one’s word is deceitful. You don’t seem to mind it. That’s a pathological quality.

Tell that to the people who got a second Fresh server for WotLK.

See previous.

See previous. Advocating for change is casting a vote.

And I’m saying agreeing with any changes is agreeing with lying to the public - because that’s what endorsing any changes at all is doing. Doesn’t matter if you like the changes or not, changing the game goes against the original promised word. Broken promises, manipulating people, that’s okay to you apparently? Because you keep your stance despite me continuing to explain this.

Again, the integral dilemma is that changes are not what everyone consented to. Goes against the stated intention of what was invested in. Manipulating people = bad, yes?

Secondly, how is stat squishing and M+ in essence not retail when those features originated there? You’re advocating for retail qualities to begin with.

Killawar says that the proposed changes are changes and that changes themselves go against what was promised.*

So why do you think feelings should be the standard and not the objective form of measurement that was promised?

No, it’s a goal. Whether you can achieve 100% authenticity or not is the question, and 100% is a fantasy. 95% is not. Even 99% is not. Even if it is unattainable, why do you think it’s okay for a company to abandon a goal they promised just because they figured out it was going to be hard? That’s a pathetic excuse.

Which is why you are okay with the changes hence the pathological self-interest.

You just admitted to making a decision based on feelings, so yes you did.

It takes some thought to think back and connect the dots between what Blizzard has promised in the past and what they’re saying now. It also takes some thought to connect the dots between retail and the #changes. So breaking promises and citing Blizzard as an un-credible source is “thoughtless” now, huh?

“You say things without thoughts! That’s why you don’t like changes!”

Nope. Changes shouldn’t be implemented based on what Blizzard promised. What I “think” is of no concern. Once again you’re trying to misinterpret my rationale. Strawmanning yet again.

So when you advertise a game with the expressed purpose of #no changes and people subscribe based on that promise, those people are consenting to those set rules. Are you trying to say now that people didn’t subscribe because Classic was advertised as Classic? That’s openly disingenuous.

Yep, based on what they marketed, promised, said, etc. Keep excluding the rationale behind the decision all you want, it’s still there.

Pose: To present or constitute.

You “present yourself as a satisfied customer” is the snippet you’re trying to cherry pick, but even by that standard you’re still defined as a shill.

Someone doesn’t like to open their eyes to other posts, do they? Because the mass majority doesn’t like the changes either. Know why? Because it’s not what was promised.

All lies haven’t been implemented to the point that authenticity is unachievable for me, and that’s the goal.

Nope, they “pay” to satisfy their base. What a completely ignorant thing to say. “Game companies are paid to change games” - no, they’re paid by people to incentivize them to do what they have been doing/have done.

Really? Tell that to the people who, again, got another Fresh realm because of what they posted.

If I supported liars then why am I here advocating against it? I support Classic’s original promise hence why I invested and now have been deceived like many others. I’m voicing my displeasure with that deceit. Sorry, the “you should just quit” presented in a roundabout way doesn’t work.

Yes, I did because within the context of that question you claimed you “didn’t care” whereas you’re trying to imply that I should stop talking because “it pays Blizzard”. Different parameters, different context, but you cherry-pick so of course you’ll pretend you forgot.

You’re right, you should stop paying those liars.

We’ve circled back to the fact I’m on a forum for discussing the game which I am using to discuss the game /sigh

I think you deserve a promotion from Captain to General Obvious

I’m playing prepatch, enjoy playing with yourself here.

More like Blizzard lied. And stop giving them feedback? No thanks, that’s not how that works.

Different implications for each. You say you don’t care which is why I asked. You ask because of a “why fund liars?” reason. I answered. You have yet to.

I think you should stop removing context.

“I’m playing with myself on prepatch”.

Ok

This is why I quit after Cataclysm, every expansion started to feel like nerfs, spells being taken away, talents being taken away, everything being squished… I like having lots of things to manage and customize, I don’t want to lose that again.

The echo chamber is string with this post

iLvl squish and taking spells, talents and such away is not even remotely close to the same thing.

Power creep turned WoW into a seasonal game, it gave you LESS options because less items, less raids, less dungeons, less content was relevant due to how worthless previous raid became for anything other than vanity items. An iLvl squish would fight against that and effectively give you what you want, which is less retail.

Will the end-game specs be buffed with the iLvl squishing? How much will they be buffed?

ICC will be more difficult for a casual raid to finish with iLvl squishing. How are you going to solve that problem?

Most of the top raid players I know expressed that they do not want to be forced to go back to previous raids. Are their game experience important?

Many people come to play classic because of their experience with the original WOW. Do you think it is right for Blizzard to make those people to pay by stating “we have classic experience provided” and then change the game a lot?

Is it actually right, to sacrifice some people’s game experience, for the “greater good”?

Sure, but this doesn’t apply to WotLK.

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People complaining about the ToC squish, now the alternative is ulduar hardmode gear being on par with 10 man normal ICC which is also a dumb idea.
Tribute chests in togc 25 man gave 272 cloaks with sockets
258 weapons
And a boat load of tier tokens

The squish in toc is the better option than having ulduar gear outright be better than toc pieces.

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