@blizzard This literally solves the issue you are seeking to fix
Do this dont make ICC and TOC worse if the goal is to make ulduar better then just make it better and leave the rest alone. This will also not affect the endgame scaling of player power so it would have the smallest effects on the game that we enjoy.
I agree especially because if they go through with this nerve has anyone else done the item level numbers If they nerve toc Across-the-board toc and Ulduar Have the same item level on all difficulties.
Yeah, I have misgivings about how classes will be disproportionately affected as well. The first thing I thought about was the armor pen stat in general and how it gets better the more of it that you have. Basically how things like that might be affected, not to mention how the classes interact with stats differently in themselves.
I don’t remember Wrath well enough to tell you whether this is a big deal or not, or how significantly it will “balance classes.” But, the developer from Wowhead’s developer discussion (one of the original devs) considers that class balance was “kind of broken” by ToC because it was never planned and put in as a stop-gap raid. That ToC inflated Ilevel beyond their original intentions, I guess. I assume he’s implying that some classes that scaled better with stats got way out ahead of others because of this.
On a personal level, I think power creep is a bad thing because it widens the gap between tiers in a way that a Ilvl graph might look closer to a cliff than a ramp. That cliff type of graph–at it’s extreme–leads you to seasonal type of content design where the previous tier of content becomes trash, world/dungeon content are trivialized, and the catch up gap for new and returning players widens. Obviously it doesn’t get that extreme in WoTLK, but I imagine that it rings true to a much lesser degree.
Why should someone who has cleared ulduar for 5 months be worried about returning. It’s like as a warrior I can’t even muster up the thought of Doing another gruuls for dst and I’m fine with that. It’s not a hard raid but after months of clearing it people just don’t want to do it.
Look at tbc level 70 heroics as a good example. What do you get out of shattered halls heroic vs normal? You get 4 badges 6 if you beat the timer and 1 epic. This is literally nothing for how the difficulty changes yet almost every shattered halls I’ve ever ran once I was 70 and had the key has been heroic. People aren’t driven necessarily by ilvl.
Prepatch is two days away and you are asking for a buff already? That has got to be some kind of record right?
Change nothing but especially don’t change things concerning balance. It’s why we wanted Classic and not retail. We do not like the current “design philosophy”. We don’t want it in WotLK. Keep the item squishes and whatnot in retail where it originated.
Why should someone who has cleared ulduar for 5 months be worried about returning.
Well, what I’ve seen quite a few people saying, is for the legendaries, trinkets, and achievements. The idea that “We’re doing Ulduar anyway. There isn’t any need for this change in terms of relevancy,” is why I brought it up initially. And, I think it’s true, that people will be fishing for that stuff for a long time.
In my mind making more items relevant for longer by closing the Ilvl gap is an opportunity to avoid an MC like scenario where if your binding didn’t drop, the whole raid was a waste of time and a bummer.
E.G. Some of the time that you did spend farming for DST would probably have been more rewarding if there were more drops in Gruul’s Lair that were useful to you for longer.
Again I say you know it’s going to affect scaling of certain classes in a lot of ways on top of that if they do this it’s going to destroy TOC Because if they scale those item levels back 13 item levels Ulduar and toc Literally have the same item level.
Effectively destroying it
I think the difference between equivalent difficulties of each tier would still be 6 I-levels, if I’m reading the dev discussion correctly.
Even if it were the same, I think it’s a bit of an exaggeration to say the raid would be destroyed/not worth running. It’s a really short little raid with some good gear IIRC.
No it’s not like if you read the post they say 13 item levels if you look normal normal TOC is item level 232 Normal mode Ulduar is 219 And it’s like that for every single part of TOC if they roll those items levels back by that much TOC is effectively worthless.
Who’s we? Should the game really be designed around of obsessively simming min/max players?
The increase in difficulty is going to be a health buff. Let’s not overexaggerate and pretend that this will be an unsurmountable change.
Great, that only benefits one person. Do you have something against the entire group benefitting from old raid clears?
Again, benefits very few, and also not guaranteed because not everything in Wrath is itemized that well to be sought after even at iLVL discrepancies.
So 2? 2 trinkets? Again, what is your issue with making the raid more rewarding for EVERYONE?
And they can also be completed in one run typically.
Not everyone min/maxes as much as your guild does. You did warn us that this section was entirely anecdotal, but this is getting a little silly at this point.
Just looking at loot tables, for 10 player that seems right. That the 232 gear in ToC will become 219 and be equivalent to Ulduar, apart from Algalon who drops 226. But, 25 player ToC is 245 (will become 232). 25 player Ulduar is 226, apart from Algalon who drops 239.
So, that is kind of a bummer for people who might not have a 25 player raid team. Will it totally invalidate 10 player ToC? I don’t know for sure, but I don’t think so. The gear is still equivalent for the most part and I’m sure there are some stand out pieces in ToC.
Yeah that’s my point if you look at each item level from TOC and compare them to Ulduar It’s literally a 13 item level difference so they do those nerves TOC is effectively a worthless raid Tear.
I’ve no horse in this race since I view fiddling around the corners of vertical progression akin to swimming to the clear side of the septic tank.
Just wanted to mention that it’s terrifying that humans can’t rationalize that a nerf and a buff are identical. It was always only ever about the average power level. We are silly monkeys.
It already exists this way, and has been this way for the entirety of Classic.
If you understood the post you’d understand that this is not the crux of my concern.
Legendarys don’t just benefit one person, they benefit the entire guild.
Flare of the Heavens, Show of Faith, Meteorite Crystal, Pandora’s Plea, Heart of Iron.
Even average guilds will be doing 3-4, and even in the event we get a 6 month Ulduar you will not complete that many.
100% agree, BlizzAAAAARD…
Humans are emotional animals and all experience is subjective. A nerf and a buff are not the same thing because one feels good and the other doesn’t. You can’t remove the human element from design decisions, that’s how we ended up with retail - everything being driven by player engagement metrics.
Ok, once again, I’m asking should the game be designed around min/max players? Your response doesn’t answer my question.
Who’s saying it’s the crux of your issue? Why talk about it at all if you don’t want people to respond to that part?
I mean technically, sure, if you want to be dishonest. It disproportionately benefits one person a thousand times more than the other 24 though.
Not all of these are going to be sought after in ToC. Did… are you just listing all trinkets to see what sticks?
Do you have a citation for this or are you making it up?
Sorry, but you’ve failed to convince me that this is a problem for anyone.
Yes, my response does answer your question. The game isn’t being designed, it already exists this way because we’re playing a game that has already run its course once - and that is precisely what the community at large signed up for.
It exists as a part of a greater whole and cherrypicking one of several points in support of a broader idea and then drawing a conclusion that was never even part of the meta-narrative is intellectually dishonest. The point of the paragraph is that increasing the difficulty of a long raid that is already more difficult than what we’ve overcome in TBCC is a recipe for high player attrition, and attrition kills guilds. When a guild dies not everyone moves on to another guild, some players quit and the community shrinks. T5 and Sunwell were meat grinders for less organised guilds, buffing ICC would just exacerbate an already occurring phenomenon. Making content less accessible is almost never healthy for a game.
Teamwork makes the dream work. Sorry to hear you’re not in a guild that understands this.
Given that we’re not going to be able to equip both normal and heroic versions of ToC trinkets in WotLKC, yes actually most of these will probably be relevant beyond Ulduar. Fwiw that’s only a third of all trinkets that exist in Ulduar.
We embraced some changes years ago. Did you not get the memo? You should expect some changes. And no, this doesn’t answer my question in that regard, because the game is being designed.
Your refusal to answer it is the only answer I needed from you though.
Ok but you realize degree here is extremely relevant, correct? That’s my point which you have noticeably failed to grasp. They aren’t going to make it hard enough to significant impact player “attrition”. This is just you exaggerating and doomsdaying about something you know very little about.
And I’m sorry you’re in a guild where you force raiders to run content so one person can do slightly more healing in easy raids that are already easily clearable without it. This goes back to the biggest issue with your post: not everyone needs to min/maxes to the extent that you do.
Absolutely not true, you’re showing how little you know about the loot in ToC/Ulduar which discredits your criticism about the iLvl squish honestly. You may want to familiarize yourself with what the loot is and how it works and then get back to this.
As of right now, the post and your replies in the post are failing to convince.