Of course. Why would you take someone into a high key - that you had to spend a good chunk of your own time leveling it - that doesn’t have a track record of at least potentially understanding the mechanics?
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Healers asked to heal.
What else would you suggest? Without increasing dmg / hp pools, healers would literally just have to sit there and be AFK with massive heals topping everyone off immediately. It’s already a huge argument if healers are supposed to damage enemies if there isn’t anything to heal.
I will counter such brilliance as asking, “Why would I START M+ from the bottom if I don’t need the gear it gives?”
The gatekeeping types never had a direct answer for that, but only to say, “If you want close to the best ilvl, you must reach 15, but not before 11-14, 6-10.”
Because back then, if you worked the CQ schedule past the middle of the season–and naturally do the warfronts and mythic dungeon weeklies–you could obtain an ilvl that made the begging M+ keys irrelevant.
It’s a paradox. I don’t need the gear from low keys I have to do to get the gear I need doing the higher keys. So it “almost” makes running low keys a waste of time; time better spent ganking people in KTZ and SW City…
We’re talking HOURS each week just pouring into running keys from the bottom, which translates to HOURS worth of flagged Alliance escaping the justice of the Law of Red.
Sadly, mine was the losing argument esoterically, but a true WPvPer is gonna WPvP. Which meant that M+ looked nicer when bored or not many people around to gank. I couldn’t beat the gatekeepers on that argument, but I could beat them by saying it wasn’t worth my time. The gear may have been worth my effort/energy, but NOT MY TIME. Time is a currency you DON’T get back once spent.
Edit:
Because Hunter became the best stealth class and because they are ranged, and are capable of oneshotting, that does make Hunter the best ganking class. So coming back full circle to the OP, if you main MM, your job/role is to gank. Unfortunately, ganking has negative connotations, but remember the Law of Red: “If it’s red, it’s dead.” That means even the Glad that just got out of Arena in SW City is red and therefore dead(let’s hope?). So it’s only trolling if you want to troll with it, but there’s a clean and sportsmanlike way to gank.
So I wasn’t going to let flagged people get away with chilling out and therefore logging after they were done playing if I’m spending more of my time in instances. For a real WPvPer, that’s no bueno. Now I have to do my progression homework too, but as soon as I felt that I got the minimal gear I needed, I went out and hunted. In this way, I was the deer hunter/angler neighbor you never see at his home during the season(s), being gone all the time.
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Simple. So you can learn the mechanics of the dungeons.
Beginning of Season 2 I was already well geared from last season. Blizz lowered our keys 10 levels from the last season. So we started low, figuring out what mechanics were important and how to deal with them. By end of the week I was successfully doing keys that gave me gear upgrades. By the next week, I knew the dungeons well enough to be doing levels that my gear was pretty low for but gave very large jumps in gear as rewards.
It’s putting in work up front for a later payoff - and really not too far off of a payoff.
It sounds like you want the payoff without putting in any of the up front effort. And why should people who did put in the effort to learn the dungeon mechanics carry you through them? It’s not gatekeeping to want to play with like minded, similarly skilled people. But it is entitlement expecting better experienced players to carry you through content you have not prepared for.
It’s not a paradox at all.
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It’s a time paradox. We can agree on this.
Later in the season, you’d think that people who started got the gear and it subsequently makes it EASIER to bring along people doing it later. Because by the time I was even looking at M+ as a later progression option, MOST dungeoneers would have had plenty of the keys on farm. That bothered me too, but they were so selfish as to say you have to start all over from the beginning. That’s antithetical to Blizzard themselves giving catch-up mechanics in general.
So you can say it’s a sense of entitlement, but things start changing engagement-wise later in the season, and it’s why FOMO has teeth. Everyone is fresh and playing the endgame hard, but that changes when people get their fill by Week 16 or whatever. So it wouldn’t be asking a LOT out of people who would STILL be doing M+ but got as far as they did, and probably wouldn’t mind breaking in new people just to even GET an influx of people. But they would gatekeep from a pretense of selfish superiority.
I made do either way. Not being able to do a teen M+ didn’t stop my roll in WPvP even back then. “Oh, woe is me, I can’t get the best gear in the easiest way, boo boo,” was what other McWeaksauces would have said.
Thankfully, they lost in the end. Gearing has never been better, especially the ilvl disparity. I’m sure that bothered them when they couldn’t gatekeep out the “riff-raff” that no longer would find M+ essential to their progression plan.
Also, two certain persons upvoted this for no good reason other than to spite me.
And I will repeat, it is a sense of entitlement. No one owes you their time. No matter how well geared or experienced they are.
Could I carry someone through, let’s say a 16 Underrot? Sure. But them not knowing the mechanics is going to make the run a significantly bigger pain in the butt. You’re prolly not going to be smashing worms on 2nd boss. More work for everyone else. Prolly wont be blowing up the spores on 3rd boss with the upheaval. More work for everyone else. 100% wont be positioning right for the last boss. Again, more work for everyone else.
You expect other people to do more work so you can do less and get the same rewards. And then have the nerve to call them selfish for not meeting your expectations.
That is entitlement.
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Likewise, I didn’t call out for groups to go hit up SW City and BFA Assaults. So I didn’t owe anyone on the same faction my time. If you want to go WPvP, you go WPvP and spend the time doing it: solo, duo, trio, w/e. Now, that being said, you can pick up at any time.
But it has nothing to do with taking up someone’s time. It has a lot to do with whether or not you want to still have volunteers or not. Because you may not realize it that a lot of people who get done with M+ their way simply QUIT. You’re right that they don’t owe me their time, but you don’t understand that often came in the form of not being on at all. They may go read a book or do different vidya. Obviously I can’t and don’t PULL THEM on Bnet and ASK them to run me through stuff. I make do with what’s there.
So at that point you wouldn’t offer crash courses like you know it like the back of your hand? If I was still doing M+, it would spice up the challenge a bit from it being too stupid easy with my Gucci gear. If I truly loved M+, I would want to share that love and bring all, just like I am with WPvP. And think of the positive impact this has on the community, so they don’t find a readier reason to QQ when bored.
In the real world, this is why we have SPECIALIZATION in the job economy. Not everybody wants to raid. Not everybody wants to do BGs. Not everybody wants to do Arena. Not everybody wants to run dungeons. And not everybody wants to WPvP. I was never a dungeoneer; I let the dungeoneers do the hardest work there. As a ganker, I’m at the forefront softening up the opposite faction with my hunts. But I’m not a gatekeeper; I’ll take anyone who wants to come along. And things can get nastier than if I was solo, but it actually makes WPvP a bit more fun.
Unless people are strict raidloggers, chances are they will be out in the open-world and potentially flagged up. And that can be anybody of any ilvl.
I’ve been in scenarios where we’ve wiped tens, or a couple hundred of Alliance in SW with just 5-8 people, and most of them probably never really do it all that much. But I would never be the kind of guy that scrutinizes stats and such, because each person learns how to hack it with their class/spec of choice.
Now granted, this was back when we used to have TWO OPPOSITE FACTIONS and really, we don’t anymore. It’s Hello Kitty now, which means it’s virtually PvE. Any PvP nowadays more or less is “tacked on”. That rides on a tangent that I can’t specialize as a ganker all that much anymore on Retail. *I needed to add that it’s important regarding MM because ganking is the best role for MM. MM, I still do believe, cannot raid like it can gank, can not dungeon like it can gank, and cannot arena like it can gank(unless you adopt the two-boxing skill like Cash which is a form of Arena ganking).
I am not a surgeon. I did not go to medical school.
By your logic, a surgeon should let me stand in the operating room while they perform an operation and then give me half their paycheck. If they are so good at their job they must be bored and can give me a crash course.
A bit of hyperbole but the point stands.
It sounds about right, and if you have things in perfect control, someone who has never picked up a scalpel can really go far with the right guidance. But the surgeon would be worried the novice might run off on his own and start his own surgeon practice, I guess.
We’ve seen this happen in GUILDS a lot in WoW’s history, where certain cliques form up as those who can work better as a team to do raids and dungeons, to the point where it undermines the rest of the guild. If it reaches critical mass, a new guild forms.
I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s what happened among the puggers of M+ back then. Just like Mean Girls, you have to be “one of the [mean] girls” first, dig? It was sad that M+ became more of a who-you-know game.
In BFA, I did manage to pull a certain Malygosian Paladin from Normal/Heroic raiding to mess with me in the WPvP game. He was my toughest competition, but I managed to beat him in the end anyway.
You have an extremely unhealthy attitude towards knowledge and experience, to say the least. You consistently make egregious assumptions over the difficulty and skill required to execute higher-level tasks.
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I cannot stress enough how this means nothing to me. You’re fighting people who are for the most part not even prepared for or expecting a fight.
Real PvP happens in rated. This is coming from someone who stays out of rated PvP. The gear and skill levels are much more closely matched and the people who get to high ratings are more skilled in PvP and more knowledgeable of every single class than you could possibly imagine.
Dismissing that controversy as “wokeness” says a lot of negative things about your character.
Do it, then. And not nonsense casual PvP. Go test your skill in actual rated content.
You desperately need to broaden your perspective. Schooling low-levels in a capital city all day got to your head.
Do you know what Dunning Kruger is? Because what you do fits the bill completely. You overestimate your abilities because you don’t engage in any content that requires high competence.
Do you know where the players are in modern PvP?
They’re either in rated PvP, in battlegrounds, or they’re actually engaging in World PvP; just in areas where there are real rewards to be have so you have all max-level players turn up who are actually prepared to fight. Dragonflight has actually been a good world PvP expansion so far. You just don’t know that because you haven’t played it, but that doesn’t stop you from making nonsense assumptions like this.
I’d love to see you go up against any Bite The Curb player in world PvP. You’d get wiped out.
No, it wasn’t any meaningfully difficult content. And these weird tangents that pepper your posts are distracting and unnecessary.
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After I’ve ganked 10,000, that’s going to cover anyone from 0 to 2400. I don’t always keep track of who has what rating. And I’ve always said that in WPvP, ratings don’t matter. That’s what UNRATED means; there is no rating. Your skill doesn’t wear a number out there.
You mean like how real warfare happens in real life? Even on Classic today in IC, I got ganked 3 times: twice I was one-shotted from low health being in the Broken Front, and the first of the three times I took a D with a boomie(but I got him first before his moonfire).
And I’m going to admit: Hunter PvP in Wrath sure does suck. But I went ahead and KOS’ed the DK that ganked me, ensuring that next time I catch him in the field he’s going down from best range. You can’t get that kind of thrill and excitement in what’s rated.
Rated PvP is too predictable, and too familiar. It’s too much sport and not enough real combat. But Cashmeowside does an excellent job showing us all what MM is good at. He’s my hero for the same reason I made MM work in WPvP. So all I have to do is check his channel and watch some more one-shots.
Just being accurate to the facts, because of what was going on, uh, “in house”. A certain Iranian fellow, who liked his smokes?
This caused a moral panic that doesn’t reflect upon how good or how bad SL and DF were as expansions. Obviously BFA is by far the worst post-Leg xpac anyway…a factinion!
If that stuff DIDN’T come down, DF’s WPVP might have been saved from the player engagement side. But here’s something you might like for negativity about my character: I found it the perfect revenge for Blitzchung. Not that he broke the rules, but Blizz turned their back on a Hong Konger and then had to turn their back on a certain Iranian fellow(who should have been fired a long time ago anyway for his EQ legacy).
Sounds like all I got to do is hook up with Cashmeowside. He would have no problems taking me under his wing. A cubed comp would be AWC material. But that’s not really my thing; his two-boxing practically deletes anything. Having me along who understands and practices the same doctrine would probably get the Blues to ban us for “exploiting” MM mechanics!
The sad truth is that I can’t even do the “schooling low-levels in a capital city all day/night” anymore because I still look at SW City and Org in Retail and it’s sad how desolate it is. Then again, that’s part of the reason I picked “Jackal” for a name; a lesser opportunistic canine predator who lives in desolation.
SW City is my home, just because. I practically “own” it.
According to Dunning-Kruger, I’m at the far end of the x-axis, the “expert” end that rises after the downslope. I’ve had enough humble pie in Leg and BFA until I was able to break records in Shadowlands. Just like The Jeffersons, I finally got a piece of a different, much better pie.
I see too many blues and not enough green targets in the capitals. Trust me, if I’ve seen tons of greens, I would have tooled up for DF and take my fill of WPvP. SW City or Org is not the target-rich environment it used to be. So I’m going to pretend for 5 hot minutes that in DF, people will turn on WM for DF zones and then turn it right off when they’re back in the capitals.
I’m not faulting Blizzard for this either, because I believe they’ve done a fine-boi job. It’s the community and the lack of their engagement I’m concerned about. If it all went to either some other PvP MMO or Classic, then I should focus more on the latter.
I haven’t heard of Bite The Curb, but I’m on the record for respecting the power of Darkshire SWAT. So don’t worry, I know a good WPvP guild from a bad one, and the first two bad ones are CL and Ruin. Now, that being said, you got to set up Bite The Curb like The Godfather, and let those 
s roll…
“But it wasn’t meaningfully difficult,” said the rear echelon commander. “I’d sure love to comp-stomp, or chill with my fellow arena and BG club members, so many…miles…away…from the real fighting.”
TL;DR: If you’ll excuse me for saying that I don’t find beating a computer all that meaningful in difficulty, or running up against the same people that you would know on a first-name basis either, I appreciate it. Because I don’t. That’s why I accepted WPvP as a calling. It could be both a gift and a calling.
Because I used to be a core raiding Warlock that never completed a tier ever, and despite being in the world’s-first hundred or thousand of getting Black Harvest, I wasn’t really anything special then.
Dang this is a weird convo. I dont get how attacking completely unprepared and unaware players is an achievement. Especially when they are in a capital city.
As always jackal your posts are always an interesting and crazy read my man.
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I guess winning WWII was no big achievement since partisan warfare contributed a lot to the effort. If you know your history, plenty of unprepared and unaware(or incorrectly prepared and aware) Germans were captured or killed by partisans, especially in the urban areas. In WWII terms, I’m the STEN-wielding French partisan going full gangsta on the occupying German soldiery. And partisans were just ordinary people that blended in well among civilians.
That’s warfare, though it’s a different kind of warfare than being on the front lines.
To be able to operate in a hostile capital city for HOURS on end is the achievement, to continually make the city unsafe. The terror or the disgust of getting opened on is nothing like losing a high-rated Arena match or BG. If you’re flagged and in one of the capitals, you can and just might get ganked. Likewise, your activities at the bank and AH can also be disrupted for a short while. (That’s why I was ticked off when Valdrakken had an AH all can use.)
My guy the connections you make for this game with real world events is just nuts to me lol. I have no idea how WW2 relates to WoW but if it makes sense to you there is no way im entering that debate.
Still love to read your posts my man keep it up!
It can’t be too hard: two major power blocs fighting each other GLOBALLY on Azeroth and even other worlds? That’s already WWII, yea?
Before I say anything else in this thread, I’d just like to highlight what shouldn’t need to be said:
Comparing your in-game messing around to the struggles and tribulations of real-life combat in any form, especially what partisans in WW2 had to endure, is immensely disrespectful.
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Or it could be a way to respect/honor their memory? Partisans were not real soldiers, but they had guts. It’s just RP fluff anyway, but I would think that’s how I was engaging in the in-game lore.
But honestly, what’s wrong with doing the endgame that way? I never had a GM stop me from what I was doing, and it was rumored that I was reported a lot. Speaking of North American Normal, it was only rarely would an opposite faction visit a capital city to gank for a few minutes because bored. But I would be out there for anytime between 1-6 hours a night…
Or I could just say I play WoW like people go out at night to hunt/fish. “Catch anything?” “Oh yea, bagged me 50-100 Alliance tonight! I got me a nice 2100 Arena lunker a couple of times(true story). Ooh baby! He squirmed a lot!”
But that’s Hunter. Hunting is about hunter vs. hunted. It’s not a lady or gentleman’s sport at all. I think a lot of people get that wrong. Much like how Rogues operate(and for some races, Hunters and Rogues are in the same boat), you have to play dirty. You have to catch your quarry unaware and unprepared, because good luck winning if they are.
No, the surgeon is worried that the novice without training or experience would mess up and “wipe” the team, so to speak.
That was just my free speculation about the practice of the M+ gatekeepers. I was seconding to Pesa about how Hunters didn’t get in easily and I can remember back in BFA that was the case. The nice thing about the CQ schedule at least was that you knew what you got every week after you put in your 500. It was not that RNG nonsense, and in WPvP, knowing how to gear is the first skill. You could get something out of M+ that would have been terribad for a MM at the time, like Crit/Haste. 500 CQ took about a couple of Assaults and doing the airdrops both days. Blizz did come up with the residuum though, and I have used it before.
You can say that in order to git gud at WPvP, one must optimize their secondaries with…surgical precision.
But breaking down gear pieces from the lower keys yielded VERY LITTLE residuum, so it wasn’t efficient to just farm those low keys either. That would have been easy street for me.
This is lovingly forgotten history now because in SL they brought back PvP vendors with PvP-adjusted ilvl gear, so it really took a diarrheal dump all in the mouth of BFA’s gearing system. Everybody knew M+ being EZ Mode on progression was the wrong idea. I would probably skip out on Classic BFA in the unforeseeable future because I’d rather not relive those nightmares.
So in surgeon terms, when SL and DF came along, there are these Fallout-style “auto-doc” systems that practically put human surgeons out of a job. The machine does everything to restore you.