How would it change your opinion of BfA as a whole? How would it change your opinion of the factions, and the war between them?
In this hypothetical, there is nothing that takes its place except maybe what is necessary to smooth the transition to other plot points. The war would have been about Azerite and who controls it, and the Battle for Lordearon would have been about Anduin wanting to punish Sylvanas for the events that took place in Before the Storm. Saurfang’s arc would not be about the tree, but a general distaste for Sylvanas’ leadership and methods of warfare (executing forsaken for the sin of feeling “hope”, blighting Horde troops defending her city, etc.) Nothing else changes.
Edit: I suppose the Darkshore Warfront would also never have happened.
The burning of Teldrassil is one of the most poorly received developments in the game’s history, and I am curious to know how much of the negative reaction to BfA hinges on that event taking place and how much is because of other reasons.
That’s actually fascinating because Zandalar is the part that I care about the most, mostly because it’s been a dream of mine to come here, but also because it’s the most divorced from the faction war (up until the Battle for Dazar’alor). But as a night elf, how could you be bothered with the plight of the Kul Tirans when you just lost your home?
If the War of the Thorns never happened I could have also played my Horde alts. As it stands, I will never actually play the Zandalar storyline myself.
I’d find the faction war to be a lot more interesting, because there’d be a higher chance that it began from warmongers on both sides whose stories the player could follow. If there is a faction v. faction themed raid, I really want to see a fun multi-stage encounter with Sky Admiral Rogers and her fleet. Why is she missing in a faction war expansion when that’s the epitome of her character?
(Incoming grumbling about the War of Thorns)
If the devs/designers/writers/whoever didn’t want to spend a lot of narrative energy on getting closure for genocide, well, they shouldn’t have written it in the first place. (In character voice or not, the word was intentionally used to describe, at the very least, how the Alliance saw it.) There were so many options to make the War of Thorns less unforgivable than it ended up being.
The actual burning could have been unintentional, due to underestimating Azerite war machines or the Azerite sucked up by Teldrassil’s roots.
There could have been far fewer night elf civilians driven into Teldrassil - when their superpower is turning invisible in the woods of Ashenvale, why not just keep hiding out in the woods until the Horde leaves? (And it woulbuild up that guerilla vibe that never seems to translate into in-game stuff well.)
The Alliance could have evacuated the tree and then burned it themselves to deny it to the Horde - sure, it’s a repeat of Lordaeron, but wouldn’t that make the two situations more equal?
This story took a running leap off a cliff - flashy, exciting, but not heading anywhere good. Maybe the writers actually have a landing planned, but it doesn’t look like it from where I’m falling and I don’t have much trust left to give.
Followup question: If the Night Elves get a shiny new capital that’s even better than Darnassus, and the civilian population is shown to still be healthy despite the losses, how would that change your perception? Obviously, it wouldn’t make Teldrassil’s burning acceptable or forgivable, but would it soften the blow of losing it any?
Well, the war of thorns itself isn’t that much of a problem. The horde commited a horrible atrocity by killing countless civilans and almost wiping out an entire race unprovoked.
The problem is that Blizzard said in an interview that this is just how it is and that the night elves will not get any revenge for that event.
What’s next? Sylvanas turning out as a hero and the night elves fighting on her side?
It would compensate a little bit for what happened, but the official lore says that the majority of night elves got wiped out from this event, mostly innocents, mostly civilians.
Do you happen to have a source for this? It’s not that I don’t believe you, it’s just that I find it odd considering how many other holdings the Night Elves have (Feathermoon, Moonglade, Hyjal, Val’sharah, etc).
I think Blizzard writers are out of touch with the way the players would view these types of atrocities. Razing a city is only mildly bad to them. “These things happen in war, no big deal. Tyrande killed one of Sylvanas’ Valkyr so it evens out.” It’s not even close to comparable, and it doesn’t help that the characters in universe are written to think like Blizzard writers do. Only the Night Elves and Worgen are pissed, and they aren’t even pissed enough. Is everyone in Azeroth really so desensitized to genocide?
The world of Azeroth is a world that revolves around it. it’s a sick premise when you really start breaking it down.
But to answer the title, yeah it’d probably change my view of it. Shoulda never happened. It was a double down on a cheap marketing gimmick. Someone might say “faction conflict is what the game is all about though!” but look at classic: the faction conflcit is msotly between players and that;s if you role a pvp server. it is cool. I like it. but you feel pride in your faction becasue of other players. Like im gettin ganked in stv and gotta call in the boys. they come and save me. i group up and say “theres an ally over there killing people” and we al know we gotta stick together and defend ourselves. the story isnt explicitly around the horde venturing off to burn down cities of civilians. and the zones are not permanently changed to reflect it after you do it.
putting al lthis front and center killed the game and fundamentally misunderstand what made “factions” cool feeling in classic wow to begin with. it wasn’t the big hero story narrative of your faciton heroes kiling eachother. it was you and the other people struggling to survive the world banding together to get things done, and battling the other faction players when you had to. even the story elements reflect it. alliance and horde are not in open warfare, but they are near it and sabotaging eachother when its necessary.
In order to appreciate the burning of Teldrassil you kind of have to understand what Teldrassil is first, right? And the way time works in our game it flows by level. So you'll still be able to start in Shadowglen, go to Dolanaar, Darnassus, Darkshore, go through all of that, and then when you hit 120 we'll burn it all down. 110. Pardon me.
It’s comments like that that make me think the writers are just way too comfortable with genocide and way too out of touch with their players.
If it’s any consolation, as a troll player, I know somewhat how the Night Elf players must feel. There were times when I thought Blizzard was legitimately trying to make trolls go extinct. I just think they don’t think about the consequences as hard as they should have. The Night Elves are probably going to bounce back against all odds and with no explanation, because population has never been a concern for Blizzard.
As people referenced earlier, this is the quote on population from Elegy:
The World Tree was more than a city. It was an entire land, home to countless innocents. How many night elves were elsewhere in Azeroth? Far too few. Now, they were all who remained of their people.
However, I agree with you, that Blizzard does not actually care about numbers, and there will always be as many Night Elves as is needed for the story. Same as the Blood Elves and all other decimated races before them.
It’s worse than I thought, then. Thanks for finding that quote, and thanks to Ëlësåna for pointing it out in the first place.
But yes. There is no way the birth rate can keep up with the death rate in this game. Every time I get one of those quests where I have to board a flying mount and kill 100-200 by dropping bombs, I think to myself “Are there even 200 of them left at this point?” Only the Scourge or the Burning Legion could be so numerous. The Horde and Alliance, after all of the losses we have taken? No way!
If the War of Thorns never happened I would actually be willing to play this game that I’ve played and loved since Vanilla. But it did, so I can’t.
I quit the game because of the WoT and subsequent burning of Teldrassil. I’m only back now (and able to post again) due to Classic, and still have not purchased BFA. I’ve always played both sides, but now cannot play my Horde characters without being a N###. I’ve considered deleting them. This and this alone drove me away- not the awful necklace, or dull rotations, or even naked Skinner Box tactics. Far too much of the early BFA story has been about the Horde only succeeded at doing something horrible and the Alliance failing to succeed at stopping horrible things from happening. I question the writers’ understanding of what ‘Morally Grey’ means. In fact, I questions the writers’ understanding, period.
Nothing can undo this mistake. Nothing. Nothing they can say will be believed, or deserve any belief in the first place. I thought they could never outdo the utter stupidity of ‘DRAENOR IS FREE, AND I DON’T GET PUNISHED’ but somehow they did.
As much as I have to skim over Pheandra’s posts as fast as possible so I don’t become enraged by them, the fact that BFA perfectly justifies her attitude is far, far worse. I cannot see it as a loss of anything worthwhile if every member of the Horde who does not willingly submit themselves to being ruled by the Alliance is butchered down the last man woman and child just to be sure. And if Anduin disagrees, he gets knifed in the back by one of his own generals for his incompetency at keeping his people actually save from anything. AND IT NEVER, EVER, EVER SHOULD HAVE COME TO THAT. The Faction War now is just Stupid Evil Sadists hitting Stupid Good Masochists.
In all honestly, my greatest hope for the ending of BFA is that we all fail and N’zoth Cataclysms the world again and both sides are totally wiped out and need to be re-built from scratch.
I hate this story. It spits on us. It spits on us all.
The only reason I’m giving Blizzard my money right now is that I can play a version of the game WHERE IT HASN’T ####### HAPPENED.
Anyone who can possibly say “Sylvanas isn’t evil” with a straight face is definitely out of touch. At this point, the only ones who support Sylvanas are the ones that actively want to be evil or at the very least don’t care if they are.
Anyone who saw the Horde as more than monsters are proven wrong. And I agree, there is no coming back from this. The Horde will never be able to reclaim its dignity, even long after Sylvanas is gone. Blizzard doesn’t understand the gravity of what they wrote.
All for that stupid tree that the Horde players never wanted to attack. It’s infuriating! That’s why I wanted to make this thread in the first place; because for me, the War of Thorns killed this expansion before it even launched. I’d still have major problems with the War Campaign making the Horde players complicit in Sylvanas’ disgusting plans when it should have been more like Stormheim where Sylvanas does her own thing while we do ours, but that grievance is only a footnote compared to how I feel about the War of Thorns and, subsequently, the Darkshore Warfront, both events I have avoided entirely and will never take part in.
I have ideas about how Blizzard plans to end BfA, but even if they surprise me, I don’t see how it’s possible that their big reveal will make it all worth it. If the War of Thorns never happened, then perhaps. But now? I just can’t see it. Both Horde and Alliance lost too much getting here.
My love for the Horde died with Vol’jin. I want nothing to do with Sylvanas’ Horde.