If the Alliance can't get High Elves, Then Give the Option to the Horde

[Snowsong-fizzcrank]

I’ll open by saying that I’ve stated in previous discussions my stance is we play “factions” not “races” despite them being called “races” because no group we play represents all humans, all Eredar, all Elves, etc. This observation is not unique to me, but I wanted to put it out there so we both know where I stand. What we play are in fact, specific political organizations of certain races, and I believe that distinction to be important.

I’m going to try and break this up. Forgive me if it’s not perfect.

Except that’s not how games are developed, especially not World of Warcraft, a game centered heavily on faction conflict. WoW is not arbitrated or balanced off of storytelling alone, but also in design, and player content. Decisions aren’t made by someone saying “Oh does this make sense story wise? Let’s add it!”

Developers must take in account existing audiences, and maintaining a healthy gaming environment. From a realistic perspective races need to be locked to a specific faction, as to properly identify which side of the conflict they reside on, of course there will always be outlier groups who do not fit these guidelines, but these cases can not, and should not be expected to be playable by us players every time we encounter it. There are many things we as players should be allowed to do from a realistic stand-point, but would present significant challenges and problems to developers.

Content balancing and storytelling need to be hand-in-hand.

Since “fair-skinned” is rather generic, and “purple” is rather specific, would you prefer I widen that statement to “not fair-skinned” when referring to Night Elves/Nightborne? Perhaps I should, as that would probably help get the point across better than the oversimplification I used for shorthand. Or perhaps it would be better to reference them as the “generic fantasy high elf look” and the “generic fantasy Dark Elf look”. The point is in contrast to the “fair-skinned Elf” assertion being made that it must only exist on the Horde, while “non-fair-skinned Elves” are fine to not be exclusive to the Alliance. I have seen discussions where some on the “anti-HE” side have suggested that fair skin is a core identity feature. If the point is that the “generic fantasy High Elf look” be exclusive to one side, certainly it should only be fair that the “generic fantasy Dark Elf look” be exclusive to the other?

I think simplifying both sides between “generic fantasy high elf look” and generic fantasy dark elf look" is far too contrived as it ignores the individual variables and contexts that surround it.

That while “Fair-skinned” in the case of the Blood elves refers specifically to one skin color, “Dark-skinned” refers to a wide variety of different skin colors. Night elves for instance already have access to a large selection of “Fair” skin tones, they simply don’t have access to the same skin color as Blood/High elves. I think it’s unfair to make the claim that Nightborne are dipping into the Night elf skin thematic by possessing a skin color similar (Not the same.) while Night elves also have access to fair skin colors like the blood elves that are also not the same. To claim that in any instance an elf is made with a dark skin tone, that it is somehow infringing on an Alliance theme while any elf race that’s added to the alliance with a pale-colored skin is entirely okay just isn’t a fair perspective to argue from.

Asking for one individual skin color to be off limits, isn’t the same as asking for an entire array of skin colors to be off-limits.

Fair enough, but then the physical characteristics that fulfill the “generic fantasy Dark Elf look” should likewise be exclusive to the faction that had it longer than Blood Elves have been playable on the Horde.

But Night elves are not just Dark elves, many of their skin shades are actually quite fair, they’re simply not the same color. If you want exclusive claim to “Dark” elves for Night elves you’re gonna have to put yourself in the same boat as blood elves and remove 90% of their skin colors so that whichever is left is more crucial, and identifying of their race. If anything Night elf players should be relieved that their race has such a wide array of options that allow them to remain visually unique, and distinct from Nightborne, while Blood elf players are faced with the reality of having an identical race added to the opposite faction.

You seem to be indicating by contrast that “a fair-skinned elf” does indeed define a Blood Elf, and I reject that. Blood Elves are more than their skin shade, just as are Night Elves. As I’ve already addressed the “High Elf look” vs “Dark Elf look” I’ll skip that part, and set aside for now the “A High Elf looks like a Blood Elf” part as I think my initial statement on the fact we’re playing “factions” and not “races” deals with that well enough to move on.

I’m not claiming that they solely define Blood elves in general, but from a visual perspective they play a very large, and crucial role in defining them, especially now that their model, and animations have already been given to the alliance in the form of the void elves. These themes are the very last distinctive appearances that belong to them, add High elves in their current incarnation and you rip that remaining them away. This was the decision made by the developers when they were designing void elves as well, that in an effort to introduce something new, and different from Blood elves they chose certain themes they felt were too intrinsic in defining blood elven visual themes, and changed them.

Of equal if not greater importance here is that previously, Night Elves were the ancient Elf race with members whose memories reached back to the beginning of their empire and the Sundering/First War with the Legion. When Nightborne were given to the Horde, that feature of their history was co-opted by the Horde, despite them having two of their own ancient-though-not-immortal races/ 3 factions (Tauren and Trolls, with the Trolls being divided between two factions: the Zandalari and the Darkspear), one at least of whose history if not personal memory reaches even further back than the Night Elves’, to the Black Empire and life under the Old Gods. The Night Elves of Teldrassil were the original faction with direct living ties to the history of the Well of Eternity and Azshara, and now the Nightborn have it too.

Night elves don’t have exclusive ownership to this lore fantasy though, and there is no reason to suggest that this should only belong to them either. They are not solely defined by this, and the narrative fantasies between these two groups is unique enough that they do not infringe on each other thematically. The “Highborne” after all are the ancestors of the thalassian race, and arcane-addicted elves have been a horde shtick for quite some time now. The moment we start getting forest elves is the day you can come to me about infringing on Night elf themes.

Just as the Blood Elves did not abrogate themselves of all High Elf history occurring before their rename, the Void Elves did not abrogate themselves of Blood Elf history by being transformed by the Void, the Nightborne did not abrogate themselves of all Night Elf history that occurred prior to binding themselves to the Nightwell, and the Draenei did not abrogate themselves of all Eredar history that occurred prior to them departing Argus, neither did the Forsaken rid themselves of the history of Lordaeron simply by dying and being brought back to life.

Dying is much different than simply changing your name or title. This is heavily stressed upon in game, that when a human is risen as a forsaken they are altered drastically and so are their values, and while this varies individual to individual this is not something that applies to living races. Forsaken do not carry on human themed customs, do not continue to look like ordinary humans, they don’t build human themed buildings or speak common either, any reason why a player might have a problem with a race infringing on the theme, or visual fantasy of another race has been altered significantly with Forsaken, which is the same type of distinction that was made when Void elves were introduced.

I remember back in the day when one of the arguments forumgoers made for the Forsaken’s legitimate claim to Lordaeron are that they were in life, and so are still in undeath, the exact people who lived there. And indeed, in lore, we have seen that many of the Forsaken have wanted to reconnect with that life by reconnecting with their living brethren, so the people themselves can’t be that different after all. They are the citizens of the sponsor-nation of the Alliance of Lordaeron, and certainly in plenty of cases the same citizens who fought for the Alliance of Lordaeron in the Second War, regardless of any changes in the Lordaeron faction’s political affiliation or its cultural shifts. They are not the only heirs to the legacy of Lordaeron, as there is also a living faction whose members no doubt still consider themselves Lordaeronians, but they are heirs.

Regardless of whatever pieces of their past they hold on to, they have been irreversibly altered from their raising, both visually and mentally. Stating that they were once “Alliance” and that this somehow is stealing from an Alliance theme is undermining, and downplaying the cultural identity of the forsaken. Every story evolves, no character or plot remains the same, so to disregard the entire narrative identity of the forsaken under the logic that they were once Alliance just seems disingenuous. They’ve been a separate, and unique entity from the Alliance since WC3, comprised of not just human undead, but many of the slain High elves as well, but we don’t see the dark rangers returning home and residing back in Quel’thalas either.

From a gameplay perspective the Undead have been a Horde race since it’s inception, their themes, visual fantasies and narratives have been changes more than enough to avoid infringing on the “human” fantasy on WoW, and that is the most important part when developing unique, and distinct races.

To be clear on one thing: If they did implement playable Alliance High Elves as requested by the “pro-HE” community, I would be very surprised if I ever leveled one past any unique initial experience. I haven’t even bothered with playing the Allied races we currently have. I am far too attached to my main of 15 years and have far too little time and interest to bother levelling up a brand new character to replace or even compete with him. I neither gain nor lose, on a personal level, whether they implement what the “pro-HE” community desires or not. I do, however, understand the desire for it, and disagree with the manner with which that desire was treated in Ion’s response.

That said, if all any race has to offer to players is their model, then that’s just sad on Blizzard’s part.

I actually agree, I don’t feel that Ion’s response was worded politely, and that when addressing the consumers it’s paramount to display a sense of decorum and respect. But that doesn’t mean I don’t agree with the points he made, and the rational to why the void elves were changed in the manner that they were.

Unfortunately not everyone pays attention to lore, and that for most the “visual” representation plays the largest role in whichever race a player chooses. For instance my boyfriend loves Dwarves, so when he started playing WoW he saw a Dwarf and immediately chose it as his character. Now he has no knowledge of any Dwarven lore in WoW, he doesn’t know who they are, or even where they came from, it’s simply the visual fantasy of playing a Dwarf that influenced him to pick it. I think important to acknowledge the significance of visual representation of races, and allow every race to retain unique themes and fantasies that can only be fulfilled by choosing that race.

My point is that Blood Elves aren’t , though they seem to be the one many have the biggest problem with it being done to.

First of all you seem to be confusing “Lore” themes, with “Visual” themes, both are exclusive, and equally imperative to defining a race. And while Night elves do share some themes with Nightborne they are not identical, and are not at risk of losing every remaining visual theme in the way Blood elves are with High elves. To justify adding an identical race to the other side under the rational that some themes may be shared between the Night elves and Nightborne simply isn’t a fair parallel.

Themes cross faction lines all the time, for good or ill.

Again you seem to be confusing lore themes, and visual themes, that because lore themes occasionally cross, that it somehow justifies infringing on visual themes, despite both presenting very different problems to Blizzard in terms of development and balancing.

I say it again: If all any race in the game has to offer players are its models, then that is sad on Blizzard’s part, and I would hope Blizzard would agree. They should be cool, but they shouldn’t be the end-all-be-all.

And I’ll repeat, not everyone is aware, or even cares about the lore of the races, that visual identity plays the biggest role when players are choosing a race. It is in our nature to be drawn to what attracts us visually, whether that be certain visual fantasies we watched on TV, or read in comic books, or you simply want to play something pretty.

While the lore fantasy is there for any player that wants to indulge on it, it’s not a necessity or requirement for most players when they choose their race.

So the bigger question should be, what besides the “generic Fantasy High Elf look” do the Blood Elves add to the Horde and to the game? They’re not the oldest/longest using magical faction (beaten by Draenei, Night Elves, and Nightborne), they’re not the only faction that was dealing with a magical addiction (shared now with Nightborne), they’re not the only pretty/sophisticated faction on the Horde (again, Nightborne), they’re not the only faction that was willing to do whatever it took to survive (Forsaken).

The problem isn’t their identity within the Horde though, it’s their identity within the game. There’s a reason why Allied races aren’t required to change to the degree that the Void elves were when they were introduced to the Alliance. Ion didn’t say he didn’t want another fair-skinned elf in general, he said he didn’t want to give a fair-skinned elf to the Alliance as it infringed on the blood elves on the horde. But like any of the other allied races on the same faction, this wouldn’t present the same problem.

So what is it that they do that no one else does, and if we can’t come up with anything, does that change whether or not we like the Blood Elves? Or do we come to the conclusion that it’s not the what that brings us to like them, but the why , the story woven around them that helps us understand how they came to make those decisions?

So here is where I address the “High Elf looks like Blood Elf” comment, and bring it full circle to my opening statement.

There doesn’t need to be anything more than their visual fantasy for players to enjoy them, and find them unique. It seems strange to me how people continuously attempt to downplay the significance of their unique visual identity while absolutely refusing to compromise on those individual visual themes for High elves. One of the very first things players did the day the void elf designs were released was petition for Blood elf skin, and hair colors, and even request them from the devs at a Q&A.

I don’t care if Alterac Humans ended up on the Horde, or Lightbound Orcs ended up on the Alliance. I don’t think either needs to be so drastically different from Stormwind/Orgimmar variants that you can’t see the relation as a race. Even something as simple as a different stance can change a silhouette. I care more about the factions that are on each side than I do about the races , and why they are on that side.

And that’s fine, you’re entitled to your own opinion, but that shouldn’t mean everyone has to share it, or that the importance of racial identity in a game centered so heavily around faction-conflict should be any less important. These two factions. and playerbases have been at war for years, and Blizzard’s choice to carefully balance visual designs is a good way to maintain faction identity, something players on both the Alliance and Horde value greatly.

For me, High Elves and Blood Elves being similar in superficial physical appearance is less important than their political leanings and personal beliefs. Game of Thrones wasn’t interesting because it was all the humans on one side and all the White Walkers on the other. Wheel of Time wasn’t interesting because all the Humans never did anything but fight the Trollocs. Those personal, cultural, and political differences, both minor and major, and the interactions between the factions because of them, are what made both interesting.

But we’re not reading a book, a writer doesn’t have to worry about balancing content between different playerbases and maintaining player relations. A writer has full control of each character, each decision, and narrative plot. Blizzard doesn’t see the High elves as a race that should be playable by alliance players as it takes the story out of their hands and gives it to the players. Suddenly what was once a closely monitored, and developed group of an already existing race is now at the mercy of the players that might hold values the devs would see as contrary to what they feel the High elves would choose to do within the context of their story.

As I’ve mentioned in a past High Elf discussion, what the High Elf/Blood Elf split gives us is the opportunity to see something that is usually reserved for back stories in the annals of history of whatever world we’re experiencing: that sundering of peoples that makes the Empire of Arathor become Stromgarde, Stormwind, Lordaeron et al. The only question is whether Blizzard has both the interest and the ability to make that story an interesting one, and if they do, I’d like to see it. And if they can write an interesting reunification story that’s reasonable within the world, that’s (in my opinion) a waste of an opportunity, but at least it’d be interesting.

If, however, all they do is hamfist a “now they’re all together again” then that’s a disservice to us as fans of the Warcraft franchise, regardless of which side of the debate (or no side at all) we fall on.

I think what the “split” gives us depends on who you’re referring to. To many Blood Elf players the High elves are merely members of the same race, who’s story relates closely and intimately with their own. I think this idea that the only narrative for the High elves must be their conflict with the Blood elves as a trite and stagnant one, one born out of a contrived ideal of wanting a playable race, and not as a narrative depth to the Blood elves.

While there has been occasional conflict between the two groups we’ve also seen scenarios of them working together, we’ve explored relationships that reach beyond political fractures, and even witnessed a high elf leader calling for reunification between the two groups. With the Sunwell restored and many of the cultural and politlcal issues that divided them now gone I think the idea of these two groups reuniting as a restored nation as a fascinating, and compelling one.

[Astronomer-muradin]

blood elves.

When you want more elves in Elves of Elfcraft you dont even care about the lore and the difference between your elves.

[Mythliel-stormrage]

As usual, useless responses.

[Jasren-illidan]

You heard it here first folks: The events that occurred in Warcraft 3 don’t matter but this Void Elf’s head canon does.

[Mythliel-stormrage]

How do the events of Warcraft 3 relate to a subgroup of High Elves, still calling themselves High Elves, that have been part of the Alliance experience in World of Warcraft… often being their actual representation?

[Brazzer-thrall (Brazzer)]

The Horde already has them. The Blood Elves got over their addiction and so they are no longer high and we call them bloods instead.

[Mythliel-stormrage]

Well no they don’t… they’re still a distinct entity with their own history since their divergence and the two until now were still at odds.

We’ll see what happens in 9.0 when the playerbase merges.

[Jasren-illidan]

Because the entire reason they still call themselves “High Elves” is because they didn’t care enough about their own race to rename themselves in honor of the dead. They didn’t care about their own race’s city, object of worship, the people who died defending them, or even about the survivors. They’re not a race, they’re race traitors.

[Mythliel-stormrage]

O you’re roleplaying.

I mean I’m glad you believe all this so strongly, but your views as a loyal Blood Elf aren’t really relevant here.

[Jasren-illidan]

Now who’s the one making useless responses?

[Mythliel-stormrage]

But you’re attempting to spin your own characters’ viewpoints as a meta argument against players having access to High Elves…

That’s not how things work my friend. If anything, the passion some people have regarding High Elves (whether good or bad such as yourself) is another reason why they are such a glaring absence. They inspire something.

[Jasren-illidan]

you’re attempting to spin your own characters’ viewpoints

The events of Warcraft 3 are not “my own characters’ viewpoints.” You’re the one that brought up roleplaying because you don’t have a real argument and you’re trying to to pull a lovely little misrepresentation fallacy. Give me one reason the Blood Elves of Quel’thalas would ever forgive the Alliance. Give me one reason those that remained High Elves qualify as a race seperate from the Blood Elves when the latter is merely the former that have renamed themselves.

[Mythliel-stormrage]

… But I gave you a reason and you dismissed it by quoting Warcraft 3… again, a point not really relevant to wanting playable High Elves. Why don’t we go back to Warcraft 2 at that point and talk about how people want to play as those High Elves…you know… Alleria and her followers who left Silvermoon for being terrible at wanting to save the world and stuff… ya know… the same ones that are still Alliance aligned?

[Jasren-illidan]

But I gave you a reason

“High Elves exist in the game” is not a reason. It’s not a premise that justifies anything you are claiming. You don’t seem to understand what the word “reason” means. It implies some element of logic, something which you are lacking.

Alleria left her people long ago. In fact, after nearly irreversibly corrupting the Sunwell she is banned from Quel’thalas forever. She can cavort around in space with goats and humans as long as she wants but don’t act like she shares the plight of her people. She wasn’t there, and because of that she’ll never connect with the Sin’dorei.

[Iridium-earthen-ring (Iridium)]

Simple as that. If you are not willing to give it to the alliance, then just give it to the horde’s blood elves.

I’m so tired of not playing the race I want to play that at this point I don’t care what faction they are on.

We ARE high elves. If you want to play high elves, come to the horde, or, wait until the next expansion and you can play an alliance blood elf.

[Mythliel-stormrage]

But it means everything, because their storied history on the Alliance is all the justification one needs to make them a playable entity.

Look I know you’re really passionate about this, but you’re continually glossing over the fact that your stance on them is just yet another reason they should be playable. They inspire something and that’s better than an option that people are indifferent about.

And regardless of the outcome, Blood Elves are going to “technically” be allied with the Alliance again in 9.0 when the playerbases merge, so you should start letting go.

[Lorithyn-agamaggan (Lorithyn)]

Do Blood Elves need to forgive the Alliance? They don’t really have beef with us nowadays. If anything there’s bad blood between Lor’themar and Jaina, but that’d be it

As for what qualifies High Elves to be an allied race… Well, they’re aligned with the Alliance. The Silver Covenant is an anti Horde hate group that’s a part of the Alliance Vanguard. They have their own unique problems, but there’s merit to their inclusion

[Verheinen-kelthuzad (Verheinen)]

both are still muslims, and no they’re not the “same biology” they’re religions.

Ok, Palestinians and Israelis. They’re interchangeable? Same biology.

[Joyeuse-barthilas (Joyeuse)]

“High Elves exist in the game” is not a reason.

The fact that High Elves are an iconic part of the Alliance and are the root of why some people are even fans of Warcraft in the first place is a reason, though. Everything about the Alliance and Horde is commercial marketing and for two while generations of early Warcraft fans, High Elves are synonymous with the Alliance to this day. The fact that they still exist in WoW is just supporting information behind why they should be playable.

[Dietbreaker-dalaran]

Haha, I can only imagine the rage at that point if suddenly the remaining true High Elves went Horde for literally no reason.

I guess they could play it off as the Sunwell cleansing them (Blood Elves) of their changes and returning them to their former selves? Though that’s what the golden eyes thing is meant for, since the Sunwell is a little different now.