If 2h frost had the same kind of rotation, would you be happy?

Classes Death Knight
21

U know, im a huge pvp fan. With that comes me not trust the dev team to make a good decision untill i have those patch notes downloading on my computer.

It’s all well and good a dev plays our class. Maybe we will get some love. But I will stand by this, if i would have to choose btwn a broken spec with 2h with plans to balance and a flushed out spec with plans to add 2h, i would go for the flushed out spec. It would be more fun to play a good spec while they work out the kinks to add 2h than to play 2h with a borked spec while they try and balance. Which again, i dont trust their track record.

We agree on 2h frost and the playstyle being similiar, we just want it at different times.

22

They have said that they arent making any major changes to the classes or specs. If that holds true, we will see.

But here is a history on Frost Dk that im sure Dreadmoore is going to call me a liar on, but you can go check it for yourself.

Frost
Nerves of Cold Steel - Increases Off-hand Damage by 25% (with full talent upgrade) added in 3.0.2
Threat of Thassarian - When dual-wielding, your Death Strikes, Obliterates, Plague Strikes, Rune Strikes, Blood Strikes and Frost Strikes have a 100% chance to also deal damage with your offhand weapon. Added 3.2.2

Might of the Frozen Wastes was added in 4.0.1 and Increased all melee damage by 4/8/12%

Patch 5.0.4 Might of the Frozen Wastes now also causes Obliterate to deal 40% more damage when wielding a two-handed weapon. No longer gives autoattacks a chance to generate runic power.

Threat of Thassarian 5.0.4 No longer affects Rune Strike of Blood Strike and causes Frost Strike to deal an additional 50% damage when dual wielding.

Then the damage increases to certain abilities from ToT were baked into Might of the Frozen Wastes in 6.0.2 and then it was removed in Legion.

ToT still just allows both weapons to hit the target when using strike abilities like Obliterate.

Before Cata there wasnt this focus on certain damage with weapon types and Might of the Frozen Wastes was introduced for 2h to try to offset the increased amount of KM procs as well as Razorice that DW had. Even the guides from back in Wrath would say that 2h was behind because of these.

Dreadmoore will make the argument that this isnt true in wrath, but then why add more weapon damage to 2h if it was already beating DW and not touch DW?

The tooltip for ToT I had to get from a Wrath Talent Calculator since the Gamepedia one is stuck back from MoP.

You also hear the argument now that weapon strikes dont do enough damage, which isnt a weapon issue. The strikes are calculated by attack power, no weapon damage involved. I calculated the damage of Obliterate for Trumpknight before armor. I came up with 10,297 damage and in another thread they said that their Obliterate damage was 10,432 damage. Then you add in enemy armor and you see a lower number.

So it is not a weapon issue at all for damage. Its a spec issue and has been all expansion long.

If people want 2h, ask for transmog. That is the best way to get it back.

23

To be fair, by that change log, they had to add a decent amount to make dw viable then added stuff to keep 2h viable along side considering ToT wasn’t added till 3.2

Also they said no “major class changes” ie, sv hunter, demon lock going from meta to zoo. They already stated they were looking at changing sub around in a QnA. So 2h introduction would be within the realm of possibilities.

I agree with you on the spec needing to work first. I also think mmorpgs are better with more options, not less. Even if it isnt optimal. As long as it’s viable, people will be happy and u can still DW :slight_smile:

1 Like
24

All they had to add in was ToT for DW. Nerves of Cold Steel was in Frost from the beginning that increased offhand damage by 25%. Why have that in there from the beginning if the focus wasnt on DW? ToT was added in further down the line locking its fate to be a DW spec.

Demo lock was changed because of the introduction of the Demon Hunter and they took Meta and gave it to them because 2 specs cant have the same thing. They also took away Soul Fire and Molten core from the spec, but kind of added it back in BFA. SV it would seem quite a bit of people dont like, but there were people asking for a melee hunter spec.

Blizzard also doesnt like the idea that players can choose to make themselves do less damage. Its one of the reasons why the old talent system was removed and changed to what we see now. I dont agree with it, but you cant ignore that is what they have done. So why would they add in 2h if its a dps loss when they dont want people to gimp themselves?

25

That went completely went over your head. Those are major spec changes. Those were EXAMPLES of major spec changes. Adding 2h is not a major spec change.

No elitists dont like that. Your average player prefers to have fun how they see fit. So if dw was still meta, they might DW to push mythic but if u can raid sv, arcane, sub, arms, literally anything not meta, u could get by as a 2h frost. Again optimal =/= viable.

No they said everyone used cookie cutter specs so they baked in a lot of the % increases into skills and passives and took major skills and added them as talents before pruning.

Again YOU dont want people to play it. Either find a blue post with these words or stop.

Rogues had CqC in their combat tree in 3.3.5a giving daggers 5% crit. That means combat should be dagger i guess?

4 Likes
26

It depends on how you add 2h though right?

And no. Why do you think Blizzard made it in cata where you had to get I think 61 talent points in any given spec before being able to go into another spec. Hybrid builds and gimping yourself and they couldnt balance it.

I also said, one of the reasons. The new system also doesnt eliminate cookie cutter builds so even though that was a goal, there are still cookie cutter builds. They also wanted to get rid of a lot of fluff like just damage buffs and crit buffs in the talent trees. There isnt just 1 singular reason why it happened.

I dont care if people play it. You need to stop putting words in peoples mouths like all these other people. Where did I say that I care what people play? Hmm? Or are you just pulling that out of thin air like everyone else? If you want to do less damage, fine, but dont complain when people take someone that does better with a better spec. You cant have your fun, and be able to complain when things arent in your favor in terms of dps. It has always happened where someone finds something they like to play but it doesnt perform.

Blizzard has been taking complexity out of specs, why? Its not because of the elitist people, so why? Maybe its because people were gimping themselves, kind of like back in Wrath when people would leave out plague strike to make their rotation easier, but did less damage. What happened? Plague Strike is no longer part of the rotation, given its several expansions past wrath, but the Blood Rune conversion is gone… again why? People that couldnt convert to death runes or elitists that could play the spec just fine? Why did they take out presences? Is it because of elitists? Or because people would use frost presence because they were frost and thought that they had to? Yes, I have been told that by a frost dk when I was tanking “im in frost spec, I should be in frost presence” and this was in wrath. Why did they remove Blood Tap? Blood Mirror? They werent removed because of good players.

27

Find a blue post stating that blizzard took 2h away because people were gimping their damage. If u cant. Your arguemnt is invalid because that’s what u are basing everything on.

Duh…they said everyone used the same thing so they made the talents more streamlined for balancing and baked passives in. I dont know what your point was with this.

I guess whining about how u shouldnt want 2h because u will do less damage and we werent meant to be 2h was all because of…? If u dont care what people play, u have a really funny way of showing it.

Cause people cry and moan which has gotten us this butchered game. Ppl that want optimal over everything and nothing else would matter. If it was up to elitists, there would be one set of talents that were optimal so people wouldnt hurt their perfect raid runs.

They were removed because people who thought themselves to be the best would endlessly cry about people misusing skills in a game that is meant for fun.

U know i mostly just skimmed your posts in the past, but if this is your argument i can see why no one agrees with you. The only thing u have is ToT and that wasnt introduced till 3.2 and NoS which is one skill for a slight increase at its origin that was so high up any spec could have picked it up. The other is claiming blizz removed 2h because they dont want u doing less damage. If you cant find a blue post saying this, you are just as everyone else has said, A troll. I gave u a chance to prove a point and the only thing u can do is talk in a circle. Blue post or bust bud.

6 Likes
28

There is no blue post stating why they removed it at all. Thats why you have to take into consideration of what they have done. My argument isnt invalid because you dont like it.

If the old talent system was removed because cookie cutter builds, the new system did nothing to fix that since there are still cookie cutter builds. I also said its not the only reason it was removed.

Never said you shouldnt want 2h. Again, stop that. I have a problem with misinformation.

And who has done the complaining? Elitists because they cant play the specs or bad players that cant play them?

So your fun is supposed to override people trying to beat hard content?

And, its clear you skimmed through because most of what you say I said, isnt what I actually said.

29

Thanks. That part of your argument is invalid now. What you are doing is assuming.

I said that already. I still dont know what ur trying to prove. They removed old trees bc everyone used the same things so they streamlined it so they could balance talents better. Ur trying to tell me something i already said.

Elitists because

Elitist mentality. Why have options for viable when everyone should just play whats optimal. Again, if it was up to folks like that there would be one spec so people couldbt play a spec they liked because it was 10% less efficient.

Im quoting you. As u like to say, stop hand waving.

So if you arent against people using 2h as u said,

Why would it matter if it was added after the spec was flushed out?

6 Likes
30

Holinka plays a DK??

31

Yessir. :+1:

1 Like
32

Thanks for quoting me out of context, doesn’t really help your argument.

33

Remember him playing unholy in the tournament I seen him in.

34

Try answeing this witha yes or no. I dont think u can.

If your argument wasn’t so bad it would be harder to prove it all false or assumptions.

3 Likes
35

https://www.wowhead.com/news=296035/world-of-warcraft-group-interview-recap-torghast-level-squish-flying-pathfinder

For instance, I main a Death Knight and have been Blood for everything, dungeons, raids, world quest, everything, so I’ve been bugging the designer team about what will this change mean for me and they say that now class identifying abilities like Death Coil, Chains of Ice, or Death and Decay will be available for all specs. Similarly for all classes.

2 Likes
36

It would be the exact same thing as we have now. A few differences would be how much damage the white numbers did, the attack speed, and the whole damage value instead of the main hand/off hand damage. Theoretically, it would play slightly better but that is just the hypothesis.

2 Likes
37

Damn it’s been a while since anyone posted here. But to answer OP’s question since I don’t think I made a post here yet, I think I would be fine if 2h Frost has the same kind of rotation as current Frost. Sure, it still needs work of course, but at least I won’t feel as bad playing Frost that way.

38

No I wouldn’t play it. Current iteration of frost is brain dead boring. 2h wouldn’t fix that issue because it’s a deeper design issue than that. Would it be cool to have a 2h weapon as frost? Yeah. But I would play dw too if it wasn’t so boring.

1 Like