I'd like to talk about M+

Hello, I’ve been thinking and talking to others about the changes coming to M+ and I’d like to open that discussion up to the public. It’s occurred to me that people are willing to put their own interests first and at the detriment of others. I believe the changes occurring in Shadowlands to M+ is a result of bias towards Raiding. The fact of the matter is, both can exist as separate paths of progression without disincentivizing the other paths. This is observable to some extent in the game’s current form.

I’d like to talk about what my ideal system would look like now. Although, it is seemingly radically different and would for sure be too late in development for them to pivot. I think it is worth sharing nonetheless. You could certainly adapt it to the current systems in place at least.

  • Mythic dungeon levels should stop at 20 (or at some determined point)

This would mean doing 20s is the equivalent to Mythic Raiding and the name of the game would be time. I think a definite stop on difficulty and switching to a system based in how fast one can do something, is a more translatable goal and achievement–without needing third parties to show you.

  • Removing Keys

Similar to Challenge Mode, or proto-M+, you would be able to go to any dungeon and do it at difficulties Normal, Heroic, and Mythic 1-20. Now, you wouldn’t be able to skip straight to 20, it would work similarly to how you upgrade your key now but instead, it saves your progress and you can always return to do any of the difficulties you’ve timed or unlocked. I think having one person be the key would be preferable here but the more hardcore or anti-sale folk could debate this.

  • Removing Affixes aside from the Seasonal Affix

While the affixes can be a challenge, it is not fun. The current seasonal affix is very fun in my opinion! The new seasonal affix in Shadowlands looks fun too! At the bare minimum I would like to see the removal of Tyrannical and Fortified. These are just boring and oppressive affixes. Whenever I think of M+ or am asked to do some, it’s,“What’s the affixes? What’s the key?” and you hear “Dead key.” a lot, joking or not, this is a sore spot for M+. If they were to remove affixes, they would most likely adjust numbers and the multiplier to better reflect 15 as “Heroic” and 20 as “Mythic.”

  • Instead of Affixes, this could open room for more Mechanics.

I don’t have any suggestions here, as I’m not trying to design dungeons. I think a few more mechanics based on the dungeon itself could potentially be a good alternative instead of random, weekly affixes.

  • End-of-dungeon Rewards

This is widely debated and what I allude to in terms of people’s biases and putting their interests before others. Why does M+ and it’s players need suffer for the sake of Raiders? They simply don’t. I understand the history of WoW and the relationship between dungeon and raid has a precedent but there was a new precedent with the introduction of Challenge Mode in Mists of Pandaria. Players should continue to have this path of progression and even have it improved upon but not at the detriment of our raiding friends.

At first I thought the single drop at the end of a key was a terrible idea (I still do if the rewards remain the way they are.) but now I see it as a potentially good balance to what I’d like to see. I think doing a M+ timed or not should reward the group with one item and if they were to time it, they would receive two items. I also think 15’s should reward Heroic level items and 20’s should reward Mythic level items. I believe in the game’s current form that these difficulties are close to realistic except the rewards stop scaling after 15. I would like to see appropriate difficulty in future as well.

  • A new Deterministic reward

I keep hearing from our lovely devs “more deterministic” and that made me think about how we can be deterministic instead of “more”. I liked the idea of residuum (Although, they could’ve just allowed Azerite gear to drop at the end too but that’s beside the point.) but I think it could’ve gone a step further with a small amount at the end of every M+. I think it would be nice to get a resource at the end of every dungeon–a small amount–and at the end of the week a large chunk. With this resource you would go to an NPC that would utilize a profession crafting interface to craft gear from dungeons and the item level would be determined by the highest level you’ve timed for the dungeon that the item drops from. This would mean, if I wanted a 475 Geti’ikku, Cut of Death, I would need to time a King’s Rest at 20 and save up resource to craft it. You’d of course be able to still get it via drop or weekly chest if that remained but it would alleviate bad luck and give players power in progressing.

I understand the human chemistry involved in these loot slot machines but I honestly find them burning me out, rather than keeping me coming back. If this system turned out to gear people more quickly, maybe they would be inclined to play more on other characters too? I know I would.

In closing, I’m very concerned about the, quite frankly, the gimping of M+ in Shadowlands. I do enjoy raiding but I prefer M+ and it sucks to see it get such an underhanded treatment and what looks to be an attempt at trying to get more time out of the player base (and or an attempt to return to form?) but it would only make me quit sooner. The game is different now, it has been for awhile, and it’s been good and bad. I don’t see why the paths of progression that have been built need to be neutered for the sake of one path, it’s unnecessary in my eyes.

If you’ve read this massive post, thank you for your time. Take care.

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The only thing I disagree with is the removal of affixes. I am ok with the idea of removing Tyr/Fort since they can combo horribly with other affixes. On the other hand, despite how frustrating certain affixes can be, I think they are crucial to keeping things “fresh” from week to week.

I think the upcoming changes to m+ loot in SL are ill-conceived. Blizzard has a startlingly poor track record of trying to design away what they perceive to be social pressures invoked by existing systems. I’m sure their task is difficult, but it’s also difficult to get behind these changes without knowing the true depths of their intentions. It’s hard to understand who this pleases other than jealous whiners.

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You say

which requires sustained focus on deadly trash or boss mechanics, but then you say

so which is it ?

Tyrannical and fortified literally force you to take the related mechanics seriously or you die horribly real fast, repeatedly. For too many pug players “dead key” literally means “I can’t beat this by ignoring mechanics”. They would prefer fighting a target dummy on wheels shouting sound effects at them.

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A lot of people I’ve spoken with and the professional opinions I’ve heard express the same idea that Tyrannical sucks. I’ve heard similarly for Fortified but not nearly as much. Perhaps it is an issue of certain things (Spit Gold from the first boss in King’s Rest) being over-tuned? My argument isn’t to make M+ easier, it’s to maintain difficulty without being boring or unfun. I wouldn’t call Tyrannical or Fortified a mechanic either, they’re just artificially healthier and harder hitting, and it’s quite unfair for you to assume people just want to “fight target dummies” because they dislike affixes. If anything, Tyrannical turns bosses into target dummies who fight back, just do the fight right.

M+ is going to be almost three times as likely to give you Mythic raid ilvl gear in Shadowlands, and that’s not enough for you? Now you want to remove all the affixes that make it at all challenging, and keep only the affix that makes it easier?

So you’re objecting to Tyrannical because you don’t want your bosses to fight back. Furthermore, you don’t want to have to do the fight right. Is it any wonder that the Mythic raiding community has no respect for M+ when they see attitudes like that?

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M+ is going to be almost three times as likely to give you Mythic raid ilvl gear in Shadowlands

Only after doing ten 14-15 keys. Edit: Wait, it isn’t even three times as likely… you ALWAYS get one item, you just get three choices if you do all the credentials first.

Now you want to remove all the affixes that make it at all challenging, and keep only the affix that makes it easier?

You’re being dishonest. I didn’t say I want to make M+ easier, just that I find most affixes not fun. The affixes alone aren’t the only challenge either. I do agree now that affixes spice up the week-to-week but I’m still against Tyr/Fort, as they combo poorly with other affixes.

So you’re objecting to Tyrannical because you don’t want your bosses to fight back. Furthermore, you don’t want to have to do the fight right. Is it any wonder that the Mythic raiding community has no respect for M+ when they see attitudes like that?

Again, dishonest. Did I say I don’t want the bosses to “fight back”. Sorry for being loose with my words, I didn’t think people would be so unforgiving. Obviously the boss should fight back but when it comes to bosses like the first from King’s Rest? Kind of not fun to fight on Tyrannical. Thankfully, I’m not like you and won’t write off the entire raiding community based on my interaction with you. :^)

People have different definitions of fun. I have a lot of fun healing 1st boss in KR on Tyrannical, it forces me to actually think about what I need to do.

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Why do I suspect you play M+ the way you post. I suspect you don’t like Tyrannical because you want the bosses to be forgiving. That’s pretty much the definition of easy content, though.

I’d rather they keep the Tyrannical/Fortified affix at +2, but change the +10 affix to whichever of Fortified/Tyrannical isn’t the affix at +2. That way, if you do a +10 or above, you get both Tyrannical and Fortified, and the dungeon might actually be challenging.

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The point is you can’t have mechanics taken seriously if numerically they are not threatening.

For example spiders on yazma in AD. If they didn’t 1 shot you in most cases do you think people would (hopefully) avoid them ? No they would take a bath in that stuff 24/7.

The game needs more bosses that are largely pass/fail (i.e. idiot checks). The kind of fights where zerging or gear won’t save you from being incompetent. First boss siege is a great example. How much pass/fail is there in freehold outside of high key grapeshot from eudora ? Pretty much zero. What a surprise that FH is a popular key.

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Why do I suspect you play M+ the way you post. I suspect you don’t like Tyrannical because you want the bosses to be forgiving. That’s pretty much the definition of easy content, though.

You’re just being obtuse with your antagonism. Do you live for fighting on forums?

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She’s not being obtuse. Either she is correct in her analysis of your desire to make things easier and using “not fun” as the rationalization, or you are not communicating very clearly.

The fact that you don’t want to engage on the issue that she’s raising, and are trying to dismiss her as being “obtuse” is another indication that she’s right.

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Imagine being able to have a discussion about something without trying to belittle the other person for having differing opinions and thoughts than yours. Is it any wonder that your attitude is worse than that of both communities? I guess I can understand why it is though, since you’re always declined invites to both M+ and Mythic raiding. It’s okay though little one, maybe in Shadow Lands you’ll be less likely to approach every person and situation with aggression and you’ll actually get invited to things. :slight_smile:

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I don’t have to imagine. I do it, except with people who start attacking me personally first. You’ll understand when you’re able to get to level 120, I’m sure.

That’s just horsehockey.

Just from the few threads kicking around here recently its plain to see that most folks here are entirely out of touch with the active m+ scene.

When you’re actively participating in content, the trends are readily apparent. It’s a well-known fact that most dedicated m+ participants consider Tyrannical to be a dead week for pushing. It doesn’t mean you can’t do high keys, but the way that affixes buff trash, and sometimes many times bosses, you get a dungeon where both bosses and trash slow you down excessively.

Before a certain level nothing about tyrannical bosses makes them much harder, they’re literally just time sinks with no added enjoyment factor.

But most players here don’t get that. They think when someones complains about Tyrannical they mean that bosses are too hard for them “boo hoo.”

Randoms scrubs see that complaint and immediately interpret that as a complaint about difficulty, instead of a complaint about poor design and the negative consequences of allowing it to persist.

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The difference here is you explained why you feel it’s a design problem and not just trying to make it easier. That’s engaging the argument. Just calling someone obtuse because they don’t agree with your assessment is engaging with the person.

Your argument is fine, but the OP sounds like they don’t like things to be challenging. If Liana is wrong in her assessment, then he should have presented why she was mistaken by clarifying his point. Your post is an example of how to clarify the point.

My response, and I suspect Liana’s, would be to ask, why is a “dead week” for pushing a problem with the design and not the players who aren’t trying to rise to the increased challenge? How do you define being “slowed down excessively”? The affixes are obviously meant to be impediments. What is your metric for an affix being excessive?

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This is precisely the reason that discussion like this are difficult. You guys clearly don’t have a clue, yet you’ve been here all along, especially Liana with garbage comments like this :

They’re being a smug little prick because they think they caught an elitist complaining that something is hard and just jumped on it like a druggy on a needle.

It’s pains me to have to further elucidate you, but I will.

You can outplay most trash affixes by differing your approach to the dungeon. If you’re playing at the top of your game, there’s no extra dps you can scrounge up to outplay a baseline health increase. There might be a few bosses where you can chose to pop cd’s differently or focus priority differently, but generally you just have to deal with it.

Bosses like 3rd boss in Siege are likely to require an extra phase, perhaps 2 in some cases. Same for bosses like 2nd boss in WS. You’re going to be hiding behind the crate an extra time or two. All that, plus the extra time it takes to do the extra damage all add up to an amount that typically exceeds the additional time added by affixes that are handled properly.

NOW add in trash affixes which increase trash health or damage and you’ve effectively got buffed bosses AND buff trash.

Weeks like tyrannical bolstering mean that trash is going to be slower, either because you have to approach it differently, or because you’re going to have to deal with is at some point. Therefore, not only is trash slow, but the bosses take a lot more time than normal.

That’s just one example. Tyrannical/Teeming? More mob health, more boss health. More time spent in the dungeon.

The examples go on and on and on, and it’s not some closely guarded secret. Tyrannical just sucks some of the fun out of dungeons. Having less desirable affixes is acceptable. I think it’s good to look forward to easier with with excitement. On the other hand it sucks eggs when a bad week rolls around. You want to run keys, but the affix combo is so unfun that you just don’t and you question why they would be satisfied leaving things in such a state.

I suspect that’s not all easy to relate to, and might seem insignificant to you, but everything in my experience suggest otherwise. And in case Liana comes in here with some more bs, I have pugged keys from 2-21 and these problems aren’t limited to m+ fanatics.

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If people “don’t have a clue” then it should be no problem for you to present the point in a way that educates them. Instead of attacking a lack of knowledge or understanding on the subject, fill the gap.

So in cases like these, wouldn’t the challenge require people to shave time in other ways? Increasing the pull sizes for example? I do understand the point you’re making, but I’m not sure you’re appreciating that, the way it’s being expressed, it can certainly sound like the objection is that an affix or affix combination makes it too difficult to succeed at higher key levels. This is ultimately the point in an infinitely scaling system. There will always be a point where it is too hard to succeed. Why is the current level incorrect, and at what point would you suggest that it would be okay if it is too difficult and why?

And it seems like the defining characteristic of “unfun” in many of these examples is “too hard”. It isn’t being made very clear why that isn’t the case, although I appreciate that mostly, you are addressing that issue.

This is a failure on my part then. Unfun is not limited to things that are too hard. In the examples I shared the problem is that the expectations are unreasonable.

Tyrannical increased the baseline difficulty of the instance to a point that it doesn’t align well with the allotted completion time. Most of the secondary affixes are tuned well enough that they add difficulty without making the timer that much harder, but others are inordinately harder to the point that it makes you wonder how some people can’t see it.

It’s important to note that dungeons scaling isn’t linear. Because the gap between key levels increases with each step up, the boss health and damage starts to ramp out of control. That doesn’t just happen at the top end, that pain is felt all the way down the pipeline.

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You are also being dishonest. Do you know how I think you and Liana have zero stake in what you’re arguing? I went to both of your posting account’s raider io and I’d link them here if I could. Liana with 282 io? LOL M+ is easy by the way. I’ll use Zothlar’s S3 io because S4 is 94 but he was at a 1,140. Impressive. I’d love to see your main’s raider io if these aren’t it. At least Liana has 2/12M and 12/12H. First three are so easy though… why not 3/12? lmfao I pugged them.

If these are your mains, why are you even discussing M+? Let alone raiding. LOL Liana has at least cleared Heroic and gone into Mythic. I pray these are just alts and you’re not posting under your main.

How can Liana be correct in her analysis if she hasn’t experienced M+? I imagine not very well, like we’ve seen. She called M+ easy content, I’d love to see her main’s IO if this isn’t it.

I would be more than willing to engage with her if she dropped the aggression and needless antagonism.

Why do I suspect you play M+ the way you post.

Wow, what an astute observation… I’m sorry for dismissing this enlightened individual! If I had known I was dealing with such magnitude of a person belittling me, I would’ve allowed it. I’m so deeply sorry.

Can one express their opinion without being overly aggressive and insulting? Surely and I’ve done so in a lot of the replies–I posted this to reddit as well–I’ve gotten who are immediately dismissive, aggressive, & insulting.

Why do I get the feeling you, Zothlar, live for fighting on internet forums as well?

People like Karandel give me hope. He came to discuss what I wrote, gave his opinion, and we found some middle ground. You, like the majority, came to say what you thought without paying attention to what I wrote and vomited forth whatever you conceived when you “read” my post.

Edit: I’m actually still laughing at you trying to insult me for being a level 60 on classic lol it makes sense now, you just read “60 night elf hunter” and thought it was witty when you played yo self. xd get gud noob

You really must that bad at the game that you can’t realize that’s a CLASSIC character. Yikes. That sure backfired, didn’t it? Better luck next time, maybe you’ll actually come off as someone who has the intelligence to debate. Also don’t know why you’d try to use someone running only 15s as an diss since it’s clear you’ve never done anything above a +10. Can’t wait to sell you carries in Shadow Lands. :slight_smile: Don’t worry, I’ll even armor stack for you so you have a chance at end game content. <3

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