edit: Well... I guess this is blizzard's way of saying don't hold your breath.
As you all are probably aware, we’ve been hard at work on the upcoming Tides of Vengeance content update. We are very excited for this update and it is very much our immediate focus and will continue to be until after we’ve delivered it to you all. At BlizzCon you’ll be hearing us talk mainly about what comes after Tides of Vengeance. We do plan on discussing some of it, but as many of you know, BlizzCon is where we typically talk about longer term goals and plans. The feedback you all have given us about Battle for Azeroth is something we are very grateful for and we can’t wait for you to experience everything coming with Tides of Vengeance.
Guess any of the specifics we want for the class is just not gonna happen. This really !@#$ing sucks.
Original Post:That the reason we have not seen the comprehensive changes Shaman needs, is because they are holding it back for an extensive 8.1 review. Likely the one we will see at Blizzcon panels for WoW next week. That the changes require an extensive rework of existing mechanics.
The reality however, i know is going to disappoint me.
What i am sure about however, is that 8.1 really is the critical point for me in WoW, and whether i keep playing.
Fingers crossed.
If we are playing make believe or Halloween (positive enhancement shaman) let me give you hope...
Elemental and Enhance have not had a major update or change yet because our dps balance per secondary scaling is under review. I think they want us to still have RNG and secondary scaling but do not want us to be OP or too low.
ReOrigination array is the key. ReOrigination array is not a slow nerf of content but a developers weekly measuring stick for dps scaling in the next tier. The stepping increase of secondaries in repeated controlled content is highly reviewed. The developers need just 1 more week to see how shamans will scale in 8.1 and then we will be informed of our changes. This will be around the time of 6-7 Array bonuses which is pretty much what we should get for next tier gear.
Happy Halloween
No idea what's happening with 8.1. It would appear that Blizzard knows class mechanics and balance have now pushed the game to a complete breaking point.
1) There was the leak about record sub loss from Weak Auras.
2) They rehired Holinka as combat systems designer. I've discussed this decision with a lot of people and the gist of it is that his rehiring is only controversial if you were a PvPer. Holinka is responsible for what many people agreed were the absolute best iterations of their classes.
3) They re-wrote their unsubscribing survey and emailed hundreds of people who unsubscribed even offering Skype interviews.
4) Community managers for the first time in my memory admitted that class balance generally was a big sore spot for the game right now. I can't remember them admitting this... ever. Individual specs/classes? Sure. But outright admitting that class balance generally has failed? That's a first for me.
So yeah, I'd say there are some reasons to remain optimistic about 8.1. Though I have no idea why the above poster thinks reorigination array is somehow representative of itemization in the next raid tier given that it doesn't provide primary stats or even a balance of secondaries that are interdependently exponentially scaling the way live itemization actually functions. In fact, if Blizzard was using ROA as a metric for 8.1 scaling they couldn't use a worst metric because of a little thing we call "diminishing returns."
10/27/2018 11:22 PMPosted by
Shalira In fact, if Blizzard was using ROA as a metric for 8.1 scaling they couldn't use a worst metric because of a little thing we call "diminishing returns."
Curious, can you link any current diminishing return on secondaries info... for enhancement?
Edit: my above post was in fun and giving an obscure reason for delayed changes. Primary stat scaling is easy. Secondary, RNG, Procs define us.
No, the primary scaling isn't easy as I'll demonstrate below.
We're going to use very round numbers so you can see the relationships we're talking about easily. The real math behind these interactions is far more complicated and difficult to model which is why we use sims. Let's look at secondaries 10% crit should be roughly equivalent it 10% damage before you factor in mechanical interactions. You can write this as 110% normal damage. This means from 0% crit gaining 10% crit is a 10% damage gain.
Now from 10% crit let's add an additional 10% crit from gear upgrades. So we've gone from 110% damage to 120% damage. We gained 10% more damage! Or did we? 1.20/1.10 = 1.09 or it's actually a 9% damage gain, not 10%. This is a diminishing return.
Now instead of adding 10% crit from our gear let's add 10% haste which we'll roughly approximate to 10% damage as well, but from a different category of damage making it multiplicative. 1.10 * 1.10 = 1.21. So by using a different secondary stat not only did we circumvent the diminishing return on crit, because of the multiplicative relationship we've actually gained more ground.
Now let's discuss all the secondaries and primaries together. Let's assume the ROA model (single stat scaling) is +50% crit. This is obviously grossly above value, but it will make the math easier.
50% crit means 150% base damage.
Now 10% Agi, 10% Verse, 10% Mastery, 10% Crit, 10% Haste. Same 50% damage value spaced over 5 stats instead of 1.
1.10 * 1.10 * 1.10 *1.10 *1.10 = 1.611 or 161% base damage. This is why you can't use ROA to model next-tier scaling. Multi-stat scalers are exponentially more powerful than single-stat models and that level of measurement error is before you start throwing in extremely buggering interactions like Killing Machine, Elemental Fury, Hot Streak and other mechanical confounding factors. Simply put: there's no way Blizzard is seriously using ROA to predict class performance in 8.1 unless they want a repeat of class imbalances in 8.0.
Damn.. man. I did not intend to take this that far. Diminishing returns per stats in WOW means at a breaking point there is a scaling reduction of return on stat by class design. Diminishing returns is not the % gain to % dps and additive as you say.
10/28/2018 12:10 AMPosted by
Shalira Now from 10% crit let's add an additional 10% crit from gear upgrades. So we've gone from 110% damage to 120% damage. We gained 10% more damage! Or did we? 1.20/1.10 = 1.09 or it's actually a 9% damage gain, not 10%. This is a diminishing return.
Heh... math... So if at 100% crit we do pure x2 dps on all attacks or 200% of dps. Is this right? 10% to 20% you have diminishing as you say? So at 100% we are not diminishing?
There's breakpoints for haste, but it really doesn't diminish to the point of not being more powerful than the other secondaries. Even though my stat weighs show now that mastery is worth more than haste, my dps drops when I choose mastery over it.
10/27/2018 11:22 PMPosted by
Shalira No idea what's happening with 8.1. It would appear that Blizzard knows class mechanics and balance have now pushed the game to a complete breaking point.
1) There was the leak about record sub loss from Weak Auras.
2) They rehired Holinka as combat systems designer. I've discussed this decision with a lot of people and the gist of it is that his rehiring is only controversial if you were a PvPer. Holinka is responsible for what many people agreed were the absolute best iterations of their classes.
3) They re-wrote their unsubscribing survey and emailed hundreds of people who unsubscribed even offering Skype interviews.
4) Community managers for the first time in my memory admitted that class balance generally was a big sore spot for the game right now. I can't remember them admitting this... ever. Individual specs/classes? Sure. But outright admitting that class balance generally has failed? That's a first for me.
So yeah, I'd say there are some reasons to remain optimistic about 8.1. Though I have no idea why the above poster thinks reorigination array is somehow representative of itemization in the next raid tier given that it doesn't provide primary stats or even a balance of secondaries that are interdependently exponentially scaling the way live itemization actually functions. In fact, if Blizzard was using ROA as a metric for 8.1 scaling they couldn't use a worst metric because of a little thing we call "diminishing returns."
I've been hoping the reason we haven't seen anything is because of point number two. He was hired back as the lead combat designer, so it would make sense that he would be going over all of the specs doing poorly. We've seen shadow's update that came shortly after his arrival, so I'm holding out hope that he has started review of shaman at this point. Since the entire class is lacking, not just one spec, it may take a while to actually get some confirmation that something is being done, but that doesn't mean nothing is happening. All we know for sure is Holinka was brought in to help guide combat design, and one other spec that was doing quite badly has been worked on.
I wouldn't get my hopes up for any more 8.1 changes. The shadow priest changes were total garbage, and didn't fix anything. Any buffs were offset by an aura damage nerf, as well.
Even if Holinka is able to make positive changes, it is something that would take a long time. He's not personally going to have time to review each spec, so he'll have to spend some time looking at the game, then give his team new directions and goals. Look for something in 8.2 at the earliest.
If you look at recent class changes, even new talents are almost always just an ability that buffs an already existing ability. Look at Surge for shaman, Time Anomaly for Arcane Mage as examples. There simply isn't a team in place that has the creativity to come up with new abilities.
Time will tell, but don't look for much in 8.1.
I wouldn't get my hopes up for any more 8.1 changes. The shadow priest changes were total garbage, and didn't fix anything. Any buffs were offset by an aura damage nerf, as well.
Even if Holinka is able to make positive changes, it is something that would take a long time. He's not personally going to have time to review each spec, so he'll have to spend some time looking at the game, then give his team new directions and goals. Look for something in 8.2 at the earliest.
If you look at recent class changes, even new talents are almost always just an ability that buffs an already existing ability. Look at Surge for shaman, Time Anomaly for Arcane Mage as examples. There simply isn't a team in place that has the creativity to come up with new abilities.
Time will tell, but don't look for much in 8.1.
There was nothing in the recent SPriest changes that couldn't have been hotfixed.
I've cancelled my sub but still have game time until the 31st. All I'm asking for is a single Blue post saying yes, they are in fact still working on the changes for Enh and Resto. I don't want details. I just want hope. That might be enough to get me to resub.
10/28/2018 01:27 AMPosted by
Kath Damn.. man. I did not intend to take this that far. Diminishing returns per stats in WOW means at a breaking point there is a scaling reduction of return on stat by class design. Diminishing returns is not the % gain to % dps and additive as you say.
Heh... math... So if at 100% crit we do pure x2 dps on all attacks or 200% of dps. Is this right? 10% to 20% you have diminishing as you say? So at 100% we are not diminishing?
No, diminishing return is what the name implies: a diminishing value of a stat.
Let's take going from 90% crit to 100% crit: 2.0 / 1.9 = 1.053 or a 5.3% increase to your damage output, not 10%. Now we see at the very high values of secondaries the value of crit is actually around
half of what it was at 0%.
Let's take your 100% crit to 200% crit value example. Let's assume instead of adding 100% crit I instead add 90% crit and 10% haste.
100% crit = 200% normal damage.
90% crit * 10% haste (1.9 * 1.1) = 209% normal damage. Simply siphoning off some of your crit you gained 4.5% more total damage output than crit alone. Let's see the total DPS gain though:
190% damage to 209% normal damage (2.09/1.90 = 1.10) or a 10% increase in total damage output. At the extremely high levels of crit, you can here that a point of haste is worth almost
double a point of crit.
This is why your stat weights fluctuate relative to each other's value and if you want your DPS to be high you
must sim your own stat weights. In years past certain stats have had interactions with mechanics that totally dwarfed other secondaries, sometimes by values exceeding 150% of the value of other stats so you stacked them to the exclusion of all others. That's not the case since Legion, Blizzard has attempted to balance out the relative value of all the stats.
I'm switching to elemental and you have to consider that blizzard is designing mechanics to keep the relative value of these stats close so we don't revert to BiS lists. This simple misconception by the community is
why they feel like Blizzard is ignoring their complaints. Just one common Shaman beg: "make Lava burst scale with crit outside of Ascendance!" Um... no. Crit in my crappy leveling greens is already within 5% of the value of mastery and versatility. If Lava Burst gains crit scaling, we would revert to a pre-Legion dual stat monopoly (haste/crit) and welcome back to BiS lists where you could drop 25 ilvls to gain a properly itemized piece of gear. Blizzard has to buff/nerf around these concerns.
Future spoilers:
Shaman won't be fixed in 8.1, it won't be fixed in 8.2
For the release of 9.0 they will mention that they will be working on some additional changes for shaman and they will move a couple talents. Healing/DPS/Survivability will remain the same compared to other classes and we will be comfortably located at the bottom.
gg
I wouldn't get my hopes up for any more 8.1 changes. The shadow priest changes were total garbage, and didn't fix anything. Any buffs were offset by an aura damage nerf, as well.
Even if Holinka is able to make positive changes, it is something that would take a long time. He's not personally going to have time to review each spec, so he'll have to spend some time looking at the game, then give his team new directions and goals. Look for something in 8.2 at the earliest.
If you look at recent class changes, even new talents are almost always just an ability that buffs an already existing ability. Look at Surge for shaman, Time Anomaly for Arcane Mage as examples. There simply isn't a team in place that has the creativity to come up with new abilities.
Time will tell, but don't look for much in 8.1.
When I heard Holinka came back, the first thing i thought was 'Omg, they have no idea what to do about the class balance'.
At first it was a glimmer of hope, because yes, the class mechanics during his time were solid... and definitely much better than the BFA iteration.
But the reality of it hits, and tells me that besides blanket bandage aura buffs and azerite talent tuning we wont see a comprehensive rework.
I love the shaman class, and can even hold my own DPS wise i suppose.... but its not fun. Its not interesting. And we no longer have an identity or distinction from the other classes.
Lets see what 8.1 does have in store for us.
Well, the Icefury change is a strong step in the right direction. What gets me is how fast they can push new content out now, but it takes years to make meaningful revisions to class design. Even MoP Monks had huge sweeping changes and Legion AFF Warlocks had some huge changes that really made a difference.
I don't call buffing a filler spell that we spam and nerfing ES a meaningful change in the right direction. That is trading one evil for another and shows all they cared about is nerfing Ele ability to 1 v 1 in PvP. It does nothing for fixing the lack luster boring less than fun play style.
I didn't even find SoP to be a good change. All SoP did was force you into one style of play, it was poorly balanced and IMO nothing close to what we asked for. That's why IMO the Icefury change is the first change is a positive move in the right direction.
or this is what we are getting because they dont want to address the real issues of ele.you know the flame shock cd and mobility.no one cared about the talents when bfa launched it was flame shock cd and mobility.
no one asked for a talent rework just for those 2 things to be fixed and they avoided it.
I was honestly expecting a rework on the level of survival hunter or demo warlock. Oh well.
10/28/2018 11:03 PMPosted by
Magmir I was honestly expecting a rework on the level of survival hunter or demo warlock. Oh well.
My fear is that a rework of that magnitude would take an expansion to do, not a patch.
It should have been done during the beta, which they cut short by like 3 months at least it feels like.
If you think they’ll be talking about 8.1 during blizzcon... you’re be sorely disappointed
If you think they’ll be talking about 8.1 during blizzcon... you’re be sorely disappointed
They definitely will be talking about 8.1 in Blizzcon. They always discuss the major patches coming to the game.
Not to mention this year will be the full Zandalari and Kul Tiran reveal with racials.
Whether they talk about our class rework though, that is highly unlikely.
it takes 3 days to level a 110 boost or a 110 alt.no sense in staying around to be a meme...lol.