Now you’re deliberately skirting around the original issue by taking it literally instead of what is actually represented in the original post. If you need a refresher, here is my first post on the subject:
"We can easily extrapolate your argument to a logical extreme and it will still hold just as much ground:
Player Agency is allowing players to choose. Not create a separate character.
So why can’t I change my class at any time? Why can’t I change my race, or even my racials for my race? Or even my spells for my class? Or my armor type?"
You’re willfully ignoring the point. When I say “change my class at any time”, I mean in the vein of changing talent points, not using a paid service. The entire point is that you cannot just change core aspects of your character on a whim with zero cost.
You know what? If you just have to be the best at M+ or raiding or PvP, then wait for somebody smart to do the math for you and then do what you are told. And suck it up if you don’t also get the prettiest outfit or the particular lore you like best.
And if having red armor and vampire-like lore is super important to you? Then suck it up and be prepared to maybe not be the most viable at something.
It is a tried and true tradition in RPGs that you can’t have it all. You can’t wear plate and cast powerful offensive magic spells. You can’t be a nimble rogue and also carry a six person tent and the makings of a banquet in your pack. You have to make choices. Sometimes painful choices.
WoW needs to get back to being an RPG. One reason WoW has lost so many players is because it lost much of that post MoP.
Your point is just asking questions and taking people’s arguments while applying them to things that don’t relate.
You’re literally skirting around the topic yourself.
With money that most likely did not take 30 seconds to make unless you’re a thief or something of the sort. Or, someone else bought it for you.
If you could pay (with real $) to switch covenant’s, that would be stupid.
They haven’t noted any ideas on swapping to my knowledge, but I assume it will either involve a questline or a substantial amount of gold. Just like, how in ESO, you have to pay a good chunk of gold to change talents and abilities.
It also costs a good chunk of gold to transmog, but you get to keep that one transmog forever or change it with another payment.
Not necessarily. Only because you don’t just get ONE ability for being a part of a Covenant. You get loads of other things. You get an entire questline, similar to the Class Order questline. This is more similar to picking your character’s race and faction.
Classes are involved in this debate simply because if you pick to be a Rogue, you don’t get the abilities of, say, a Priest.
You need to tear down that strawman argument and try again with what people are actually saying.
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Except it’s not. You still didn’t clarify my previous post. I’m not sure you realize that you’re basically just going “Nuh-uh” and trying to deflect from answering the question. I can repost that question if you wish.
How does having a PvP limited ability evoke the concept of an RPG? Makes absolutely no sense.
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No it’s not. What is wrong with you? Why are you insulting me?
Not just the one system. If you don’t want to unsubscribe, you don’t have to.
Yep.
I’m happy to take a list of strong, valid, detailed points as to why the system is bad and we’ll talk about that. I’d be happy to take the conversation to discord, as well.
Because I have my own thoughts that have nothing to do with yours. I like it. Why is it a problem to like a system?
I’m not sure you understand what a strawman is:
" A straw man (or strawman ) is a form of argument and an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent’s argument , while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent."
Can you tell me what I was refuting that he didn’t present? If you re-read my post, I was very specifically refuting his argument specifically, and I believe I even clarified in a later post.
I can change talents and Azerite traits with minimal or no cost. Which is what these abilities equate to. That was the only point I was ever making.
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I think it would be good if you could unassume some stuff - like believing that all players are feeling or thinking anything. There are probably enough individual opinions on any one topic to make that sort of sweeping generalisation null and void.
“Player agency”, to me, means that we are provided with a number of options. However, those options should never funnel anyone into some sort of narrow choice because, by doing that, you in effect remove that agency. Say there was a multiple choice quest where your character could pick one of 3 things to do to open the next quest. One could be a bit dark, one could be neutral, one could be bright and cheery. You would choose which of those felt right for your character and it would certainly be influenced by the kind of story you like to follow. The end result for any of those 3 choices would not be more or less important than any of the others, it would simply be different. That is true player agency to me.
One thing I will say is that I believe we all need to wait. Until we get a better idea of how the characters are treated overall, trumpeting anything about Covenants needs to wait. Any number of changes can take place between now and release (and almost certainly will). I’ll hold my judgment on Covenants until I see them in operation.
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Yeah, no. You’re arguing in bad faith with your talk about “logical extremes”.
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There has never been a single point in the history of WoW where every single option available to a player is the best option. If you want to perform on the absolute bleeding edge then you are going to be limited to what is the absolute highest performing classes, specs, talents, and virtually every other aspect of character building outside of transmog.
It doesn’t matter if there is a 1% or a 50% difference in output between each option, if you aren’t using the best available tools then you are not optimal.
No I’m not answering the question because my argument doesn’t apply to a completely different subject.
You are quite literally avoiding the topic.
Covenants are flawed and imbalanced. Player Agency is allowing the player to choose and take paths they like.
What isn’t player agency is punishing a player for that choice by holding them back in some manner, like for instance, making it so they lose out on a major damage ability for their class.
The punishment itself should be the hoops you jump through to change your Covenant.
Remember when we had talent trees with some talents being essentially traps for new players? Remember how they got rid of that nonsense about a decade ago?
So why are people defending bringing that back?
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Assuming they weren’t tied to an entire faction of people that you choose to work for.
These abilities could just as easily not exist at all.
…What?
I asked you to tell me what I was refuting that wasn’t a part of his argument. If you can’t, then I wasn’t making a strawman.
Because the system sucks and takes the enjoyment out of it for others.
You are so selfish. Holy crap.
I’m done.
I think the problem is that you’re taking a nuanced subject and deliberately applying a ridiculous phrase that isn’t pertinent to the actual subject and tone your “opponent” is trying to convey. Any attempts to remediate this on his part has led to you dismissing it as you being the victor, but the problem therein is that he’s not necessarily arguing for or against the things you’re proposing. He’s arguing specifically about the Shadowlands progression requiring multiple backtracking and changing due to the tumultuous nature of an MMORPG resulting in different changes along the way making some weigh more heavier than others since its inception. What’s also pertinent is that the time involved with how specific they are, and how they can be very time consuming.
Please check yourself.
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Your whole talk about “logical extremes” is a strawman. You can’t keep yourself limited to what people are talking about, so you have to invent this “logical extreme” so you can keep pretending to have a point.
Now try again when you can constrain yourself to what people are actually talking about.
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