I think Covenants enhance player agency. Some players just don't wanna make a hard choice

[Flauris-stormreaver]

We have no agency over blizzard nerfing or buffing abilities. We have no agency over blizzard designing something that is made much easier by an ability after we make a choice.

[Grivën-moon-guard]

Player Agency =/= punishing players for choosing the Covenant with the worst abilities, despite the player liking the lore and aesthetic.

Compare it to picking a Zandalari Troll Warrior. Why did you pick that instead of a Night Elf Demon Hunter? Because you wanted to.

Are you getting punished because you can’t use the spells and abilities that a Night Elf Demon Hunter has? Are you punished because you can’t access Stormwind?

Punished Kalzhun - New Heroes of the Storm skin.

You aren’t getting punished for making a choice. You either pick the choice that benefits you as a more hardcore, elitist player; or you pick the one that you want to because you can. That’s called player agency.

[Rhoven-area-52]

Who are “players” because that isn’t what I have been asking for. I like the idea of having to make a choice that differentiates my character beyond even race and spec. That sounds awesome. WoW has been becoming more of a giant multiplayer lobby rather than a role playing game, I welcome the chance to actually define what my character can do.

[Tywín-illidan]

Then make it - and don’t change it.

Everyone else doesn’t need to be restricted from changing their choice to suit the role/content they’re about to play for you to still maintain your selection.

[Tywín-illidan]

It doesn’t solve the issue of people who like the aesthetics and storyline of a Covenant and hate the gameplay mechanics it gives. While it would at least be an easier way to swap, it does not in any way solve the problem.

Just curious - if the choice of covenant and ability were split apart; would you still want players to be locked into the ability they selected? Or would you like there to be flexibility so that players who say - heal for PvE raiding can still DPS in arenas?

[Rebhe-whisperwind]

Instead of making one ability with relatively limited use there should be multiple abilities to choose from.

[Kreivos-bloodsail-buccaneers]

You’ll be able to play all content no matter what covenant you pick.

[Rhoven-area-52]

If that in the class then I would like to also lobby for being able to change my class and faction at any time for free in game. I don’t think I should be restricted from experiencing all the content in the game just for everyone else to maintain their selection.

[Rebhe-whisperwind]

Now is a prime time for someone to be hitting the concept board on more abilities, instead of waiting until a month before release and botching everything.

[Kalzhun-thrall]

@Grivën-moon-guard

Are you getting punished because you can’t use the spells and abilities that a Night Elf Demon Hunter has? Are you punished because you can’t access Stormwind?

Except this isn’t comparable.

These abilities are for my class, and certain ones are better than others for certain types of content. It’s really stupid that I should be forced to pick between the Covenant I like, and and Covenant that allows me to perform as I should.

The choice should be which Covenant you like most. The drawback? I’m committed to that Covenant.

I can switch, yes, but not without difficulty. Just like Aldor and Scryers.

[Poronroz-zuljin (Poronroz)]

Also, I did say that the abilities should be within a certain power level so that one isn’t absolutely worthless compared to the others unless you are a Mythic Plus raider that’s looking at the numbers with a microscope.

You cannot promise or even predict any such thing.

They dare not “punishing the player” because they picked a covenant.

LOL. Of course they can.

The Player has the agency, the choice, and the knowledge (Because you get to play with each covenant’s abilities as you reach class level), to make the decision of wether to choose player power over aesthetic and vice versa.

Player agency ends when the choice is made. After you are locked into a covenant, you will have no choice again for the expansion, unless you go through the process of changing, in which case you lose what you got before and have to earn your way to the new covenant.

[Odinreborn-area-52]

So, to those that are saying “What if you choose a covenant that’s the best and it gets nerfed?”, this argument is a slippery slope at best because you can very easily make the opposite point and it will be equally as valid.

What if you choose the covenant that’s the “worst” and it gets buffed?

What if you choose the covenant that’s the “best” and it gets buffed?

What if you choose the covenant that’s strictly in the middle and it gets buffed/nerfed?

To be frank, you have absolutely no way of knowing whether Blizzard is going to buff, nerf, or keep any aspect of the game the same. It’s simply bad conjecture to jump to a conclusion made from a previously flawed opinion.

We can play theorycraft all day and assume that the best covenant is going to get nerfed. But it might not. What if it gets nerfed, but not nerfed to the extent that it drops out of it’s “top tier” status? What about then?

You can make as many theoretical arguments as you want to justify your narrative even when there’s no prior baseline to even go off of (That is, actual gameplay and substantial data)

[Chroesire-bleeding-hollow (Chroesire)]

Why does splitting the cosmetics from the abilities make choosing between abilities any worse if you don’t find cosmetics interesting in the first place?

Cosmetics aren’t of zero interest (I’ll take them) but their value is pretty low relative to something that makes gameplay more interesting. We have far fewer abilities and talents than we do appearances and minipets, and as a consequence anything that offers anything resembling talents or abilities is more interesting.

For example, say you had a choice of one craftsmen’s guild from the factions that gives you the cosmetics and one warrior’s guild from each that give you an ability. You still have a meaningful choice between the covenants; you’re just not stuck with ugly 'mogs because you want an aoe ability over a pvp utility ability.

That would be fine I guess, but it’d make the feature feel kinda watered-down… following your example, the craftsman’s convenant/guild/whatever would offer little to nothing that’s novel, making it pretty boring. Ideally both halves would have equally high levels of impact on your personal gamelplay experience, so in this case the rewards from the craftsman’s guild would have to go far beyond the aesthetic rewards from covenants as previewed… like I mentioned before, something on the level of deep character customizations or some other thing about our appearance we’ve traditionally had limited control over.

[Rhoven-area-52]

After you are locked into a covenant, you will have no choice again for the expansion, unless you go through the process of changing, in which case you lose what you got before and have to earn your way to the new covenant.

Classes already work this way.

[Poronroz-zuljin (Poronroz)]

Your narrative seems to be that no matter what we do, we have a good chance of losing big. And then we might as well quit rather than start all over.

Nothing you have written would suggest you are even clear on what you’re trying to say yourself. It’s almost as though you think that confusing people is the way to gain acceptance of this mess.

[Tywín-illidan]

If that in the class then I would like to also lobby for being able to change my class and faction at any time for free in game. I don’t think I should be restricted from experiencing all the content in the game just for everyone else to maintain their selection.

That’s a great example.

If I on my DH for some content, but then switch to another character to do different content - I don’t have to relevel that character to get to where I left off.

That’s all that’s being asked - after we’ve earned each of the covenant abilities - let us switch back and use the ability where we left off on it, without having to regrind through everything to re-earn something we already worked for.

No one is saying that once you unlock one Covenant, you gain access to all of them. Just like no one is saying that once you max out one class, you get access to all classes at the same level.

We’re just asking to be able to switch, when we want, and not lose what we’ve already earned.

[Poronroz-zuljin (Poronroz)]

Classes already work this way.

Really? So I’m stuck with my class, spec, and covenant right now? I had to earn my way through rep grinding to my covenant’s trust in BfA, and I was locked into my spec and chosen gameplay because of the covenant I chose during BfA.

Interesting twist on reality you have there. It’s almost as though you expect me to believe that I can never do pvp or mythic+ because of a choice I was forced to make day 1 of bfa.

[Grivën-moon-guard]

These abilities are for my class, and certain ones are better than others for certain types of content. It’s really stupid that I should be forced to pick between the Covenant I like, and and Covenant that allows me to perform as I should.

These covenant abilities are for your covenant, and certain ones are better than others for certain types of content.

Let’s assume, anyway. I’d assume, knowing that the covenant abilities are fewer in number, that they’ll be more, relatively, balanced than classes as a whole. Fortunately, for you, you can have more than one Warrior. You could have a Warrior on the Kyrian and one on the Night Fae, and pick which one you like more. That’s still player agency, even if you don’t like the choice of picking something.

The choice should be which Covenant you like most. The drawback? I’m committed to that Covenant.

Yes sir. That’s why you pick something. That’s also the intent behind have player agency. So that way, when you choose, you commit to something even if it’s not BETTER than everyone else. Why pick a Shaman instead of a Demon Hunter?

Because you can. Because you want to.

It’s not stupid because it’s the same idea as picking a class. It is, and you can give me a list of reasons why it isn’t and we will debate that list. I promise you that every item on your list will nearly, if not perfectly, match up to the choice of picking a covenant.

I can switch, yes, but not without difficulty. Just like Aldor and Scryers.

Why make a difficult decision easy to change? That’s how you defeat the purpose of a difficult decision. You shouldn’t abandon the people you pledge your life and soul to… but if you want to, then you’ll need to step through some flaming hoops.

[Odinreborn-area-52]

First, I’m not trying to push a narrative, so I’m not sure what you mean there.

Secondly, to summarize, the post is arguing that the viewpoint of “Covenants should be cosmetic only because what if I choose the wrong covenant from getting nerfed?” is a flawed one because you can just as easily make the opposing viewpoint that you could choose the “worst” covenant and have it be buffed, and it would be equally as valid.

The premise is that you’re forming a bad conclusion based on a slippery slope.

[Poronroz-zuljin (Poronroz)]

Let’s assume, anyway. I’d assume, knowing that the covenant abilities are fewer in number, that they’ll be more, relatively, balanced than classes as a whole.

That is a convenient assumption for you to make for your argument, but one you have made up with zero basis.

There will be no good choices. Every choice will be as bad as it is good. Want lore? Forget gameplay. Want mythic+? No pvp for you.