I REALLY hate raid bosses that don't scale correctly, or need specific classes

OK maybe it’s OK on mythic raids, scaling is a non-issue because you will always have 20, and because it’s mythic trying to find the right balance between range and melee is part of the challenge.

But for normal and heroic, with scaling raid sizes and players who mostly play for fun, needing to have a certain raid size, or a certain number of range vs melee, or a specific class or spec should never happen.

My guild just got to Nymue (heroic), but first I look back at my attempts on the mythic Garrosh fight in SOD where you had 4 adds spawn across the map, you could either have everyone CC those adds and swap one by one and hope you all had enough ST damage to kill them fast enough, or take 2 DK’s with slappy hands.

My guild unfortunately did not have enough ST damage, or co-ordination for the ST strategy so we never got passed that boss, we managed all bosses up to that one, gave it a few tries but eventually stopped even trying if we never had at least 1 DK for the night.

That’s not the only boss that has that issue, but that one comes to mind because that was the one my guild got hard stuck on in recent times.

But back to Nymue, and those damn flowers. Tonight after a couple of pulls we very quickly noted that we might not have enough range, we had I think 5 range in an 11 player run and after the flowers came out it looked very suspicious that we ended up with most of the flowers at range needing basically all range to single soak.

Anyone who has done that fight knows, or if you don’t go read up on that fight, the more people who soak each single flower, the faster it goes away, so the strat is to get 3-4 on each flower as soon as it drops, within seconds it’s gone.

We pugged a few players and ended up trying our last few pulls with around 20 players. The issue here is:

  • 10 man raids have the same number of flowers as 20 man raids, maybe a little less, but not noticeable.
  • The placement of the soaks does not take into account how many ranged or melee you have.

This meaning if you are melee heavy you will end up having to have melee run out to soak, which is just dumb. And if you don’t have enough players in general, during the add phase you will have a lot to soak, with a lot of overlap, and if you don’t soak fast enough you will be in and out of soak circles dodging too many spells which will elongate:

  • The time spent on the adds
  • The time the soaks are up
  • The amount of out-going damage from the adds
  • The stacking ticking damage from the boss

What needs to happen here is to have less flowers come out with the less amount of people you have in your group, or have them soak faster with less players and have them fall more within the range of what players you have, no 5 flowers in range for your 3 range to deal with, at least not on heroic and normal.

And these kind of raid boss mechanics from Blizzard need to stop. We should never on normal or heroic be hitting a raid boss that scales poorly and is harder because you have too many or not enough range, or are missing that one spec, especially after the world first mythic clears are done.

To a degree no, but they should at least tune the bosses more in line with what you do have. On this raid boss what they should have done was do a % of flowers per group size on normal, and a slightly higher on heroic, with a split between range and melee.

Two examples for Nymue could be:

Option A:
Flowers spawning for 30% of your group size on normal, with a 30% split out to range. For 10 man that would be 3 flowers total, 1 range, 2 melee. For 20 players it would be 7 flowers spawning, 2 at range, 4 in melee. And for heroic it would be 40% spawn rate, 30% range, for 20 that would be 8 flowers, 2-3 in range and 5-6 in melee.

This would force you to take some range, or at least use your ranged healers to soak. And if you went the other way and took 3 melee and 17 range, at least the range can pretend to be melee, you cannot go the other way.

Or option B:
One giant flower scaling with raid size that spawns randomly twice in each P1 that requires all but the tanks to soak, and one half sized flower after each add dies.

That would force every player to bail and go soak 3 times between both phases and would not matter in one bit what composition you have, and would even favour a ranged heavy comp, because again, ranged can pretend to be melee, not the other way around.

I disagree, comp should matter. you can’t expect to go in with an all-melee group, for example. I’ve never done the fight with anything less than 25 with a reasonable balance of ranged to melee, so I don’t know what happens in smaller comps, but comp matters. it has to.

at the most, I think I agree with

perhaps they should.

on another note:

while I know it’s not the point of this post – this is why flex mythic will never work

No that I agree with, mythic needs to be the challenge difficulty and should never be anything less than that. We cannot be going about making all raids fights negligible on all difficulties.

And currently you can do that on heroic and normal if you had enough of the right specs, or in the case of Nymue, and possibly for the entire raid and every raid forever, enough BM hunters.

And think about that for a minute, if you had 2 tanks, 4 healers and 14 BM hunters across every raid boss ever in the existence of this game, how much easier would everything be? Sure they take a bit more damage, but they are also the only range that can full send it while moving and have an immunity. Like they can play in melee if you need them to, so you don’t even need any melee, just a couple of BM in melee range.

With our attempts tonight we did not have enough range, we started with 11 players total and had 2 ranged DPS and 3 priest healers for our early attempts with most flowers going out to range, so no one at range could stack soak and at times melee had to leave melee to help soak, so DPS was way down and healers were struggling with the additional up time on flowers.

To a degree no, but they should at least tune the bosses more in line with what you do have. On this raid boss what they should have done was do a % of flowers per group size on normal, and a slightly higher on heroic, with a split between range and melee.

Two examples for Nymue could be:

Option A:
Flowers spawning for 30% of your group size on normal, with a 30% split out to range. For 10 man that would be 3 flowers total, 1 range, 2 melee. For 20 players it would be 7 flowers spawning, 2 at range, 4 in melee. And for heroic it would be 40% spawn rate, 30% range, for 20 that would be 8 flowers, 2-3 in range and 5-6 in melee.

This would force you to take some range, or at least use your ranged healers to soak. And if you went the other way and took 3 melee and 17 range, at least the range can pretend to be melee, you cannot go the other way.

Or option B:
One giant flower scaling with raid size that spawns randomly twice in each P1 that requires all but the tanks to soak, and one half sized flower after each add dies.

That would force every player to bail and go soak 3 times between both phases and would not matter in one bit what composition you have, and would even favour a ranged heavy comp, because again, ranged can pretend to be melee, not the other way around.

Flowers seem to spawn near players. Have your ranged DPS move in MUCH closer to the boss and the flowers should spawn closer so the melee can zip out and help a bit if they need to.

Try it.

Easier to dodge cutter beams closer to the boss than farther, anyway.

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See if this is true, and I don’t want to sit here and say you are lying, then that’s just terrible. Not terrible in that it shouldn’t be that way, but terrible in that the in game dungeon guide says nothing of this and not a single mention I have seen on any guides.

Thank you for noting this, it is certainly something I will bring up with my raid group.

Consider this:

In Phase 2, do your players clump closer to the treeants, on each side, with their teams? They probably do, that’s just human nature. They’re probably within 20 yards of their side’s treeant and their other teammates.

During P2, the giant treeants also spawn flowers (on Heroic & Mythic).

Have you ever seen a flower in P2 spawn away from the 2 teams, out in the middle of nowhere?

I haven’t.

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Yeh no it all makes sense, but jesus one line in the dungeon journal that says “Surging Growth spawns near a random player” and that’s it, the entire issue of this fight is done.

Because now that I know this we don’t have to worry about not enough ranged, or even placing ranged in melee distance, but just keep all ranged players stacking on top of each other at all times so all the flowers just spawn in the same radius, even that will work better than having some random flower spawn over here and another spawn over there and have to have players run through the lines.

I LOL at not enough S/T just take some people in your raids to change talents to ST only.
People are too worry about damage meter. In raids is not as important sure some fight you have adds to burn down but there are enough AoE spec that can take care of those .

The idea that playing casually or “for fun” means playing terribly needs to die. If you run into any boss that feels like a wall in heroic, it’s because your group is either super undergeared or is very bad. This is one of the easiest normal/heroic raids ever. There were ~1000 guilds with week 1 AOTC.

That’s not the issue, for the Garrosh fight I mentioned you have 4 adds that spawn apart where you can either grip them in, or try to ST burn all 4 down before they reach the boss.

And it’s far, far easier to grip them all in, and for many raid groups swapping to each one individually and trying to burn them down one at a time is just not possible.

So…a 25 man raid boss should have the same HP/damage and mechanic output as a 10 man raid?

So now to beat a raid you just get your 10 core people and then fill out the last 15 slots with cannon fodder to keep throwing at the boss as its essentially free dps???

LFR already exists sir

Maybe, but it is also one of the longest RWF I have seen in some time too.

There are also still 2,545 total AOTC and 7,265 progressing on heroic.

Who is talking about making a 10 man the same difficulty as 25 man? No one has said or asked for that.

This is what would happen if you got rid of scaling…

Dungeon guide isn’t going to tell you how to deal with mechanics. Is for the players to figure that out. Why do you think WFR takes 300+ pulls. Is difficult and raid teams needs to figure out how to deal with mechanics.

Now is pretty easy for normal and heroic guilds as guildes are up on youtube before the raids are even release.

Who said to get rid of scaling?

I hate elites or rares that are just sized up mobs with tiny hitboxes.

OP isn’t talking health pools, he’s talking the number of mechanics that spawn with regard to the number of players.

Something Blizzard has historically been terrible at, and often has to change a few weeks after a raid launches, once they realize they goofed.

I don’t know if that’s the case, here (as a guild with a Mythic roster, we’re always doing Heroic with more than 20 players), but as we’ve already addressed, the issue is alleviated by having the ranged DPS stack close to each other and closer to the melee/boss to bait the flowers.

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But even then I have not seen one single guide, and I even watched the Method guide for this boss like an hour ago, there was zero mention of the flowers spawning near players and to possibly stack closer to make it easier.

It’s not like players are just rushing into the raid without any preparation, many do actually watch and read guides and this was never said in any of them.

At the end of the day it’s bad intuition, how many times over the years has a ranged player ever had to stand in melee for basically 70% of a raid boss fight?

It probably never occurred to them.

Many ranged DPS (and some healers) have a tendency to stand out by themselves in the middle of nowhere. Perhaps they feel safer out there, perhaps a leftover from solo play/leveling, perhaps just because they can.

But unless there’s a mechanical reason, it’s always better for ranged DPS to be closer in and closer together.

If nothing else, it makes the healers lives so much easier when the ranged DPS are clumped together and closer in.

This is second nature for players in top guilds. And it’s the top guilds that are writing all the guides. It’s just not something they would think of, because everybody they play with is doing it anyway.

Let’s take a Mythic Nymue example. The earliest Mythic Nymue kill with logs posted is from Honolulu in EU (world 19th kill). Watch the start of their replay and look how clumped together their ranged are (and how close to the boss). And NOBODY is off by themselves on the sides.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/jZqF2zDrhnmkpbW1#fight=66&view=replay

Mythic is a completely different thing. Heroic is easy this tier. This is not an opinion, this is a fact. Struggling with any heroic boss to the point where you come to the forums to complain about it is, frankly, a skill issue.