I really enjoy Survival

Yes they do need to find class developers who are actually interested in ranged specs.

The preferential treatment is from Blizzard towards melee players.

The pariah status is from the playerbase.

Good thing I was explicit in not claiming this.

The baseline of the Hunter class is ranged combat with ranged weaponry.

It’s fine for MM to be generally less played than SV.

If it’s one of the least played specs every single season after a rework away from a previously very widely enjoyed iteration, then there’s a problem.

And yet it’s still a fully capable ranged DPS so it gets more attention from Hunters.

It’s crazy how people would take so many downsides over playing SV…

It’s poorly designed in a sense that it works against its baseline class instead of with it.

The game once had ranged SV and it worked very well. It’s never had a pure DPS class with 4 specs. So, in fact, 4th spec for Hunters is a lot less likely than ranged Survival.

One of us is arguing in favour of a vastly more popular iteration for the spec. The other has vehemently argued for years that all the players of that iteration were expendable and less important.

And yet not a single Mage sees it the same way as Hunters see Survival. Why is that?

Each of the specs can use a melee weapon too if our standard for “use” starts and ends with equipping one.

It doesn’t need to see higher representation than BM.

Survival is more consistently unpopular than those specs.

It’s from just before Shadowlands and it’s an answer full of such absurd fallacies that it exposes Hazzikostas for being as clueless about Hunters as we already assumed.

For one, he claims that Survival started off different and got more similar to MM as time went on. Objectively false: the opposite true. It started off the same and got more different. It never “duplicated” MM abilities. It got its own new unique ranged abilities.

Secondly, he claims SV’s uniqueness depended on its talent tree and when they changed over to talent tiers its uniqueness was lost. Absurd lie. Almost every active ability and passive from the talent tree that made SV unique became SV baseline in MoP. Funnily enough, the notable one that didn’t was the one everyone pointed out was a poor fit for the spec from the start: Sniper Training. SV in MoP was mostly the same core spec as SV from Cataclysm, with a number of iterative improvements.

The biggest tell that someone has no idea what they’re talking about is the incessant equating of MM and ranged SV. In fact, in WoD SV had a very different feel to MM. It played a lot more similarly to BM. The reason you see people focus on the MM - SV link is because they didn’t know the class well enough to tell that BM and SV were more similar in playstyle. So they focus on the more outwardly obvious thematic differences. It’s easy to tell without even playing a Hunter that BM relies on the pet while before Legion MM and SV were both largely independent of the pet.

So the obsessive focus on MM and SV being too similar is the talk of people utterly unfamiliar with the specs. That goes for the developers put in charge of the class back then as well as every melee phony Hunter that parrots it.

This describes a ton of Hazzikostas’s decision making in his tenure as game lead, and as it turns out it’s really bad for the game once player engagement and retention are no longer considered relevant metrics for success.

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I feel like they have some right now? Spriest gets a ton of attention, mage just got reworked that was very well received, Warlock seems to be in a good place…Not to mention the newest class in the game is a ranged dps :stuck_out_tongue:

By “interested in range specs” do you mean “interested in what I, Bepples, specifically want?”

Go on, list some examples of preferential treatment. So far your example is “this exists”.

And then Survival specializes in something else while still using the “core foundation” to you. :slight_smile:

I don’t see how it’s only a problem when SV is played less than BM. Not to mention, you never answer my question every time I ask this: how much of a % of the player base does a spec need to have to you so it won’t be a problem?

Right? If people want to play a worse spec and then complain that it has no utility and no damage, it sounds like they just wont be satisified. Thankfully, both Blizzard and myself don’t really care about things like this.

It doesn’t work against it? It uses a pet, it uses a ranged weapon in some of the abilities. It’s a specialization on the class.

I’m guessing once again you don’t see the irony here? you’ve spent the last 8 years of your life arguing that the players of the melee iteration are expendable and less important lol

probably because they’re probably more reasonable people than you that don’t have wildly specific ideals of class design that only supports their preferred spec in a vacuum?

i don’t think you know survival’s kit if you think they never use a ranged weapon in rotational gameplay.

ah so once again we are in a magical world where the standards of class breakdown only apply to SV lol

I don’t think this is the case for the last two years, no? I know your probably have it all saved somewhere and I don’t really want to go to wcl to check

but this is not the case at all lol that’s why they report DF has had the highest retention ever and tout it as a measure of success

stay made, stay seething, and I really hope you can take a look at how your anger revolving this has impacted your mental and emotional well being over the last 10 years.

remember when you admitted it was bad for you? what happened?

For me I can see this as every class that has been added until Evoker has been melee. Similarly up until Evoker, we actually lost one of our ranged specs.

This is also true, they have been doing better as of late but we still waited 18 years for a new ranged class / spec while melee fans got a new class / spec every few expansions.

As an aside I hope you had a merry Christmas and a Happy New Year =)

Don’t you find it odd that all it took was 1 ranged class being added to the game to make the # of melee and ranged equal? :stuck_out_tongue: If it’s preferential that it took 3 melee classes added back to back to make melee have more numbers, wasn’t it preferential to have such a ranged disparity in the first place?

i agree buff survival :dracthyr_nod:

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MM doesn’t get attention, Warlocks evidently don’t get enough given the state of Affliction, and when they made Evoker they said they made it 25 yards because they think being up close is more interesting.

They like making melee specs.

Being given someone else’s spec.

It doesn’t because it’s not a fully capable ranged weapon user.

Since Survival is routinely below 5% of the Hunter playerbase, I’d say that’s a good problem level if it’s always there.

It sounds like they want a variety of good ranged specs to select from.

It’s not a fully capable ranged weapon user. There’s even a -50% aura on auto shot.

There were way more ranged SV players and much of the melee SV fanbase is from outside of the class, so yeah, kinda.

Maybe the answer isn’t “Hunters are dumb” and you just made a false equivalence that doesn’t hold up.

Do you ever equip one?

Outlaw Rogues also have an ability that uses a ranged weapon in the animation. Does that make the spec a fully capable ranged weapon user?

Actually they apply to MM too, but MM has shown to be capable of good representation even if it doesn’t have good representation at this particular moment.

Limiting it to 2 years? It’s been melee for longer than that.

They say that now (and they qualify that it’s compared to “recent expansions”) but when the sub numbers were doing badly they said that they’re not a good measure for the game’s success and stopped reporting them. They haven’t reported the numbers since even with this recent statement. It could be “higher retention” among a comparatively small amount of subscribers remaining after BFA and Shadowlands.

And, of course, when it comes to specs they’re clear that they don’t care about representation; or at least when it comes to Survival. Which means they don’t have a metric to judge whether a spec rework is successful or not. They would probably declare SV a success if it had just 1 person playing it.

I lied.

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Gosh if this was the case you’d think there’d be way more melee specs in the game then

wait till you find out there is more than 1 warlock spec :stuck_out_tongue:

Evoker (a ranged dps) is 25y because they wanted it to be mobile and they know another mobile range can’t function at 40y without disrupting the entire ranged ecosystem

so there’s no real answer, just bepple’s wild ego making you thinking your opinion is fact

i mean with this logic, neither is bm? it can’t function 100% by just using ranged weapon attacks. your logic is really silly

should each spec of a dps class be 33%? if one spec is just as much an outlier in the other direction (i.e. BM routinely being 70%) wouldn’t that be just as bad?

that’s why there are what, 12 ranged specs in the game?

neither is bm…i don’t think bm would do very much damage if if it only focused on ranged weapon abilities. what do you think?

no we’re not, we’re hunter players, and have been hunter players, for going on 8 years now. i suggest coping, seething, and perhaps moving on.

ah yes the false equivalence of “hunter icon is literal, but caster icons are more representative of a general concept”? oh wait that was you lol

you don’t have to currently, this is why I think you don’t know how current sv works. you use a side-arm your character has on their person

sv had good representation in shadowlands, you just feel like that doesn’t count because it’s a problem when SV is OP (but not when other specs are)

yes it has, almost longer than it’s been ranged. I can’t wait for that day!

yet you’re here throwing a tantrum year after year. what for?

why would you lie about this? does this mean you’re probably lying about most things and nobody should take what you say seriously?

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At the game’s launch there were more ranged specs. This was primarily due to 3 out of the 4 pure DPS classes being ranged classes.

Then they added Death Knight, Monk, and Demon Hunter, while making SV melee. When they finally added a new ranged spec 18 years after the game launched, it was a compromised 25 yard range explicitly because they felt being up close was more interesting.

So yes, the class designers conceptually focus on melee specs more often.

It’s not enough to write off a spec of a class because “there are still 2 others”. WoW’s class design, since about Cataclysm, focuses on specs as identity and playstyle choices. That means they need to give adequate attention to all specs of all classes. There should not be years at a time where a spec goes neglected. They have the resources to avoid that.

It’s absurd that for the past year Marksmanship has received about 2 “major” changes; reworking WRG to an RNG nightmare, and then reworking it back to something underpowered with no compensation.

This is entirely your assumption.

Their actual stated reason was that they felt from a fantasy perspective it was more interesting to be up close. The mobility was a post-hoc compensation.

Honestly, this answer makes it sound like they wanted it to be a melee class but realised it would be egregious to add yet another melee class when all they’ve done so far is add melee classes.

It’s literally what happened. A lot of people played the ranged spec, then they were told to take a hike so that a niche of melee Hunter fans could enjoy a spec made just for them in its place. Hazzikostas made it clear they didn’t expect existing Hunters to like it. It’s outrageously preferential treatment for a very small group of players at the expense of a much larger group of players.

Calling that a perceived slight is simply gaslighting.

I think you knew how much of a reach this was before typing it.

That could be bad, but a big reason for BM being that much of a share of the Hunter playerbase is because there’s no ranged Survival. Most of the former ranged SV players are playing BM now, if they’re still playing retail at all.

Looking back before Legion, it was not so simple to say which Hunter spec was the most consistently played and avoided. They traded places all the time. There were few times where all 3 were equally relevant, but usually it was a choice among two and those two would often change.

Only since Legion has it been cemented that SV is always the avoided one and BM is always the most played one.

Only two use a ranged weapon. It’s a compelling fantasy that isn’t explored enough in WoW.

:roll_eyes:

Hazzikostas was pretty clear that the spec wasn’t made with veteran Hunter players in mind.

So do you think the Hunter weapon is a bow because it represents the general concept of weapons?

Outlaw does the same thing. No one considers it a fully capable ranged weapon user.

Can you change the appearance of your ranged weapon as SV?

It needed to be one of the most overpowered specs the game has ever been to see this; much moreso than other Hunter spec iterations that were themselves problematic (e.g. BM in Nyalotha, MM in Nathria)/

SV was already the strongest of the three by a considerable margin in Shadowlands S2 but its representation was still crap. Just because it wasn’t ahead by the absurd levels of S3 which forced many to reroll to it just to cheese M+ keys.

2028, well past the game’s prime (evidently since we’re announcing expansions in batch now).

Languishing spec in a languishing game.

It’s important to not allow the discussion to be swept under the rug. It should be a burden on every SV discussion.

Because it’s a personal matter.

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I wonder if that’s for a reason? It took what, 12 solid years for there to be +1 melee instead of more than a decade of a giant ranged disparity? i’m sure you don’t see that as a problem though. not to mention it took them half as long to make it “balanced” between m v r. finally, I don’t think you really care about there being an equal number of r vs m since you continually demand sv being made ranged again, which would upset the balance you apparently care about.

yup finally you are agreeing with me and are being reasonable about MM

please take off the tinfoil and get some fresh air. your mental state is making you actually imagine conspiracies to get mad at.

calling a spec existing preferential treatment is insanely egotistical. we’ve been talking about this all week and you can’t even think of an objective answer lol. surely we can say BM getting to do it’s full rotation at full mobility doing the most amount of damage is just as preferential? :stuck_out_tongue: again, I feel like you don’t really care about “preferential treatment”

nice rebuttal bro!
“survival is a deviant because it can’t do 100% of its rotation with a ranged weapon”. “saying bm can’t do this is a reach”

ridiculous claim to make. you think a large portion of BM will suddenly swap to a DoT spec? also I love how you completely avoided the actual question here lol. if >5% of a spec being played is bad isn’t more than 80% just as bad? should each spec be 33%?

Only two use fire magic, only 1 uses frost magic, only 2 use daggers, only 1 uses glaives, 0 use wand etc. I like how you continually pretend only your interest exists as a black sheep.

another great bepples rebuttal. in your words, I believe this is “evasion!”

i’m a hunter player and have been a hunter player for 8 years. I suggest moving on

it could! all 3 specs use ranged weapons currently as you learned recently

not yet, would be a really cool glyph though!

during this patch destruction was even more overpowered :slight_smile:

i really like how you only see a problem with a dps spec being OP is when it relates to SV. you don’t care when BM has over representation, you don’t cry about ranged specs being op. seems like your bias makes you hard to take seriously

yet here you are, crying about a game you find languishing unable to stop talking about something you don’t like, in a game you see as a failure. you’re not coming across as a reasonable person at all

gosh it’s kind of crazy that players have been asking for years to be more series and less detached episodical content. how dare they listen to the player base.

unreasonable behavior, ego driven, I really hope you can get a new hobby soon

so if you’re a self admitted liar with a self admitted bias, with a self admitted obsession with burdening discussion, why should anyone care what you have to say?

The reason there were more ranged specs is because there were 3 pure DPS classes that were ranged, because their established class fantasies were heavily rooted in ranged combat. Only 2 ranged specs were not in those classes.

You could make the argument that they could have had another pure melee DPS to help balance it, but given that the pure melee DPS class they have is usually the least played class it seems they made the right call all the way back at the start.

Nevertheless, every DPS spec they added after that was melee until Evoker, and even then Evoker is a compromise.

They could massively improve MM’s standing with surface level fixes, not a “floor to ceiling rework”.

They did talk about how dragons fight up close.

So if they replaced SV with something like a support spec, and all the people currently playing it perceive that as a slight and preferential treatment to people who want support specs (which would absolutely be the response): would that also be delusional and egotistical?

Removing and replacing a ranged DPS spec with a melee one that they knew full well the ranged players generally wouldn’t like: that’s pretty much as severe a slight you can get in class design. Every time you insist I’m not giving a real answer you’ll get this same one because this answer is true.

BM directly uses ranged weapons as a key part of its ability to deal its full damage potential as ranged. It does not use an animation-only ranged weapon. It does not deal only half its damage at range.

That’s why I left it at “you knew this was a reach before you typed it”. Because it’s yet another of your nonsense false equivalencies. It’s not even worth the attention I just gave it, so congrats on getting me to give that attention anyway.

Plenty of people played ranged SV back in the day, so yes I think it would work out better than melee SV and Hunters would appreciate the additional ranged option.

It does present more problems for the relevance of MM (which was also a pressing issue back in ranged SV’s glory days), but that’s a smaller problem than trying to support the relevance of a melee spec in an otherwise ranged class full of people preferring ranged combat.

It’s unrealistic to expect there to always be a 33% balance between 3 specs of a pure DPS class. However it shouldn’t be the case that one of the three is so consistently barely played.

“Ranged weapon” is a much broader and general concept than specific schools of magic or specific types of melee weapon. Again, you knew this was a reach before you typed it.

SV Hunters are not real Hunters.

They do seem to spend a lot of time resenting the rest of the class. Do know that’s reciprocal.

SV doesn’t use them enough. It should equip one at the very least.

Wow, a critically important part of ranged weapon fantasy that SV doesn’t fulfil.

Yes, many push groups of the time either brought 2 Demonology 1 SV, or 2 SV 1 Demonolgy. Those specs were in a league of their own; an easily preventable situation that should never happen.

Although I suspect they knew what they were doing and it was part of a naive effort to give those specs their “time to shine”, instead of any meaningful effort to make specs relevant and widely appealing in the long term.

Before you think that’s bias, I think they did the same to MM in HFC. Arguably BM in Nyalotha, too, but I think that was more an unintentional side-effect of Dance of Death and most people didn’t see it coming.

Actually I don’t like when BM or MM become the only options to play. Ideally both would be relevant.

I would actually like to play MM some time, but right now it’s usually a dramatically worse option for keys which is my primary mode of content in retail these days.

I do primarily play WotLK now, after all.

Sure, but it is clear the game is well past its prime; as is the Survival spec itself.

It’s reasonable to not want one’s spec removed.

Why do you care?

You’re posting here with a much higher frequency than even I do at this point.

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Your whole argument is that the game “favors melee DPS” because of the 6 years there was +1 melee. You ignored the 12 years there was more ranged DPS.

surface level fixes to you being a massive change to trick shots, removal of an AoE cap…which are a lot bigger changes than “surface level” lol

well yes it would be delusional because they specifically said that wasn’t happening :stuck_out_tongue:
when you say “preferential treatment” people are going to think you have a valid answer that exists outside of your ego. things like shadow or balance or mage receive preferential treatment (frequent buffs, frequent reworks, frequently strong).

you can do full damage without kill command? what do you do instead? i didn’t know kill command was considered a ranged weapon ability

right, which is why i asked isn’t the opposite also just as much of a problem?

this is why I don’t think you actually care about any of this because if hunter was made up of 2/3 full mobile ranged classe, nobody would play MM :stuck_out_tongue: which, presumably, should be a lot bigger problem to you than “a small problem”

why are only your preferences relevant? why are 2 ranged weapon specs more of a black sheep to you than the 2 dagger melee specs (a giant difference in fantasy than a 2 wielder) or the 0 wand specs that exist?

yes we are :slight_smile: my class is hunter, my order hall is trueshot lodge, my class color is green.

that would be cool, i’d love the extra stats. maybe in tww all 3 specs will have both weapon spots back as stat sticks + vanilla pandering

changing weapon appearance is “critically important”? something that can be solved by a glyph is a “critical problem”?

isn’t this the solution to your problem? your most often touted memory was when each spec is cleanly rotated in and out of being the most played of a class.

hopefully you start sticking to the wotlk or soon to be cata discussion areas. it seems like it’d make you happier and relaxed

yet here you are, spending time and energy talking about something you don’t like and think is failing

is it reasonable to go into every thread and make your slight everyone else’s problem? no

because you should engage yourself with things that make you happy instead of upset

And then they kept making new melee specs and even stole away a ranged spec.

I mean if you want to call making Trick Shots work on 2 targets and have a square root cap a massive change, go ahead. They should do it. It doesn’t make sense to give MM all the downsides and no upside.

They literally took someone else’s spec and gave it to melee players. That’s as preferential as it gets. Acting like it’s unreasonable to see that as preferential treatment is nothing short of gaslighting.

Like I said, you know how much of a reach this is. It’s not worth attention.

SV is part of the reason why BM has so many players.

It would be a lot easier to make a less mobile ranged spec relevant than a melee spec. So it’s a much smaller problem than what we have now.

This argument that “if we had 3 ranged specs they would each struggle for attention” is nonsense when what we have now is way worse: a melee spec that gets avoided as much as possible. It only makes sense to someone so obsessed with melee that they see it as a selling point, which is a vanishingly small niche of the Hunter playerbase.

Difference between melee weapons is not as big a difference as having a ranged weapon.

As for a wand spec: it could be interesting but I guess they see it as too much work. I do think they should explore it and the fact that they haven’t isn’t an argument against having another ranged weapon spec.

“I think that a lot of existing hunters, they are all hunters because they want to be a range class, and so we don’t necessarily expect them or want them to feel like they should be changing; but for new players picking up that class, it is an intriguing option”

A spec made for non-Hunters at the expense of Hunters.

I’ll think about “vanilla pandering” whenever I hear another lecture from a revisionist lunatic arguing that melee Survival is the spec going back to its Vanilla roots.

Yeah, it is. Having a ranged weapon includes being able to select your ranged weapon. A basic part of the fantasy of a weapon user. Otherwise it might as well be an Outlaw Rogue with its animation-only pistol (the one Survival stole the animation from)

Not really, no. The level of power advantage SV had in late Shadowlands was way beyond what’s typical for this game; at least since the era of ensuring each DPS spec of a class is itself an independent and adequately equipped damage dealer (basically anything beyond WotLK).

It has confirmed my belief that ranged Survival is better for the game.

It’s good to have someone around advocating for good class design decisions. Otherwise it ends up with a FF14 situation where the only people around are devout fanboys who back every single decision even if it’s obviously negative for the game.

It is reasonable because it’s correct :slight_smile:

Does this thread make you happy?

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This 100%.

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This is what gets me, if they had simply added msv as a 4th spec we wouldn’t be in the position to still have this schism all these years later, unfortunately what msv players enjoy came at the expense of what rsv players had enjoyed for many years. This is exactly why I think the best way to move forward is to make rsv a 4th spec or make msv / rsv a choice node etc. We need to add, not subtract.

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and yet there’s an equal number of mdps and rdps. some “preference” if it took this long for there to be an equal amount of melee :stuck_out_tongue:

sure make this change? i dont know why you think i wouldn’t like this? lol. the rest of the kit still wouldn’t be that fun and it still wouldn’t have any real mechanic to play around

the game having more ranged specs for 12 years = not preferential. one spec being changed to counteract that = preferential. got it :slight_smile:

“you know how much of a reach this is.” SV existing does not drive players to BM and you know it. people play BM because historically it has been simple and it’s by far the most safe spec for people to play and perform well on.

do you think it’d have the same player base if barbed shot or kill command suddenly had a cast time? would it have the same player base if it actually played like a rDPS instead of melee? :thinking:

so sv has to fully function with bow and do all their damage with a bow to count rdps but bm doesn’t got it :slight_smile:

are you talking about MM here? sounds like people just want to play bm

is this why people only play BM? they like less mobile specs? is this why people keep asking for MM to be fully mobile?

disagree and you know it. two daggers is not the same fantasy or playstyle as one two hander. if you don’t see this is as the case then we can realistically say a mage is the same fantasy as an archer

a spec made to draw new hunters to the class and it worked :slight_smile:

glad you agree with me about the glyph idea. hopefully they can add it but I have a feeling that would make you very upset

don’t really agree with your argument here. if MM was within your stated “Acceptable levels of difference” it still wouldn’t be played over BM.

kind of delusional you tie the entire health of a game to one single dot spec existing. maybe you’ll be able to stick to cata discussions if it’s a better environment for you but I doubt that will happen

which is why I am here :slight_smile:

this is why people say you have an ego :slight_smile:

yes? why wouldn’t it

if you think a choice node could recreate the entire “rsv” wouldn’t it make way more sense to just put that on MM lol

When I said choice node, I meant kind of like how feral and bear used to be. Regardless of how it is done (as long as it is done well) I believe it makes more sense for it to be with survival given the themes / playstyles, current MM doesn’t play anything like rsv used to. Plus MM shouldn’t have to lose something to make fans of survival happy, if a compromise has to be made, survival fans should be the ones to c do so (that includes msv and rsv btw). Still, why get so hung up on me using choice node and ignoring everything else. I also said a 4th spec and that we should add rsv, not remove msv.

yes I have been saying for several years to add a munitions spec to the game for those that want their dot spec

I swear Bepples arguments get worse by the day I think it’s time to retire king

The reason there were more ranged at the start is we had Hunter, Mage, and Warlock, 3 pure DPS classes, with identities rooted in ranged combat. They carried the ranged DPS count. There were only 2 ranged DPS specs that weren’t part of those three classes. This was also in a time when the distinction between specs of a pure DPS class was low, so it’s not like ranged DPS had infinitely more playstyle variety than melee at the time.

Then after that, they added 2 new melee classes.

Then after that, they added yet another melee class and changed an existing ranged spec to melee.

They may very well have preferred ranged specs at the start. But there was a clear stretch where they preferred to design melee specs. And considering the first “ranged” class they added post-launch has a limited maximum range because they think it’s more interesting to fight up close, I don’t think that stretch is quite over yet.

I don’t think it needs a Vulnerable-esque gimmick. Vulnerable was generally badly received and by the end of Legion had been largely compromised to pointlessness. The most played iteration of MM was the one right before Vulnerable which had even fewer mechanics than what it has now. And, of course, there have been plenty of times when the post-BFA iteration has seen good representation.

Its representation is definitely more sensitive to performance than that of BM, and that’s only natural. But maybe they could just start with making sure the spec is not a long list of downsides v.s. BM with no clear upside before rushing into reworks that might not even be successful.

Yes taking a ranged spec from a large group of ranged players and then making it melee in favour of a small group of melee players is preferential treatment. Plainly and objectively.

When SV was a ranged spec it often had similar representation to BM.

SV being melee and MM being subpar both contribute to BM’s popularity. For most Hunters BM is the clear option not just because of its own simplicity but because the alternatives aren’t compelling. There’s no universe where SV is as compelling as a melee spec as it would be as a ranged spec. So if the goal is to make the other options in the class more compelling v.s. BM, a good starting point would be to not arbitrarily handicap one of them as a melee spec.

Do you honestly believe that people view BM as handicapped with respect to ranged weapons in the same way SV is?

Because I don’t think you honestly believe that. That’s why I don’t give this talking point attention. It’s the same reason I ignore Toxiktraktor’s posts. I don’t engage with insincerity.

Stick to sincere arguments.

People in DF S1 were fine with playing MM. Maybe it’s a more recent issue instead of a fundamental issue.

People also ask for SV to be ranged :thinking:

Yes I know you disagree, and you’re incorrect. Ranged v.s. melee weapon is an inherent and critical capability difference. Dual wield v.s. 2 hander is not.

It infamously turned out terribly. Most melee players stuck to their own classes, while Hunters predictably stuck to BM/MM. This left a miniscule audience for Survival.

This was only predicted by just about everyone who wasn’t so infatuated with melee combat they genuinely believed it was a strong selling point for a Hunter spec.

I would see it as yet another unsatisfactory but telling concession towards ranged weaponry for Survival.

Its representation is not good right now (yet still better than SV), but it could be.

Personally, I like MM. But it’s very difficult to consider playing it when a) its single target DPS is poor and b) it takes a massive penalty for large bloodlusted AoE trash pulls, which are in abundance this season.

It needs to not be such a major loss to the group v.s. having a BM Hunter instead.

I don’t tie the entire health of the game to SV (typing this feels familiar :thinking:).

The game can handle one bad spec rework decision. That doesn’t make the decision not bad.

Only one of us advocates for an iteration of SV proven to be widely enjoyed and successful.

Being correct is what counts.

You don’t sound happy.

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So to you, when there is an equal amount of ranged melee or one more melee than ranged, it’s an immediate crisis that needs resolved right away by the addition of a ranged spec, but when there’s vastly more ranged specs it’s not a problem? surely you can see the “clear stretch where they preferred to design melee specs” simply being a solution to a problem you yourself complain about? How else do you make the amount of rDPS equal to mDPS without adding 4 melee specs?

Wow a mobile ranged spec has high representation? who would have thought a safe to play high performing simple to play spec has high rep :stuck_out_tongue:

do you honestly believe that people play BM to be a ranged weapon user? do you believe it satisfies the ranged weapon fantasy?

much less than bm :stuck_out_tongue:

people also ask for bm to be a tank or fore bm to be melee :thinking:

it’s as much of as an important fantasy difference than the difference of a rdps and a ranged weapon rdps to you.

and gosh do I have fun with my spec that exists

(less than half a % better)

it was successful only 3 patches ago. i feel like if you were to advocate for SV to be successful you wouldn’t celebrate when its nerfed? :thinking:

are you projecting?

sure, but it needs SOME gimmick to play around, some sort of actual gameplay loop besides “use ability on cooldown”