I love Classic but I hate how they balanced Hybrids in Vanilla

[Aedric-herod]

you can tank, heal, and dps
you want like 6 specs now for druids? rofl

[Greenshayna-argent-dawn]

The developers. They even discuss on record how they expected certain classes to be able to serve the role of healers or tanks.

Link for fact checking or it never happened.

It isn’t silly, nor is it a coincedence that all the hybrid classes are the ones that primarily tank or heal in a raid.

Warrior is considered a hybird, they Tank / DPS in raid, (since they have no heal). So basically what your saying is your a designer of Vanilla wow and you know what direction it was meant to be for paladins?

Again, if you have proof the designers said these things and this is how they wanted it to be please link for the rest of us? I remember back in those days i was a young man in my 30’s and I never saw a post or official link anywhere telling me my Paladins role was meant to heal in the back of a raid! Just saying.

[Skire-moon-guard]

Yes. In addition to tank, heal, and DPS, I’d also like:

4. buffer, so that i can grant +critical thinking and +reading buffs to people on the forums
5. class deletion spec so that i can delete rogues, mages, and hunters from the game so that i can replace them forever
6. a spec that literally gives me the best of all 5 of the other trees so that i don’t have to make any decisions and can tank, heal, and DPS all at the same time like everyone says i can

[Döt-grobbulus]

class deletion spec so that i can delete rogues, mages, and hunters from the game so that i can replace them forever

I believe they started implementing that on TBC and finished in Wrath.

[Skire-moon-guard]

It’s amusing but I don’t think BC really did that at all. I think it was the sweet spot in fact. Hybrid DPS was generally good but not great, and the raid utility they offered was substantial and useful.

I think you pretending that this is zero-sum is sort of intellectually dishonest and you seem sort of smart to me so I think you’re probably just trolling me at this point, but that’s okay. For the sake of argument, what effect do you think a Moonkin Aura with 5% spell crit would have? What if the Faerie Fire debuff provided spell hit chance if you specced Vengeance? Both of those things have a higher impact on the DPS of the players around a Moonkin than the Moonkin itself.

[Hidalin-pagle]

If a hybrid tax was removed, it would mean that you would in turn have less utility. Like in retail, where a shadow priest loses almost all of the healing potential of holy because to have both would be OP.

Try again. DPS classes still bring loads of utility. They can’t heal, but to say they give up utility is just false. In fact I’d argue that Mage, Hunter, and Rogue utility is at least comparable to anything a Shadow Priest or Cat Druid offers, if not better.

You didn’t understand the point I’m making.

I also wonder if you appreciate how complicated class design is.

You can’t have a DPS class bring as much support or utility as a class that is able to tank or heal well. If you then raise the utility further, as you suggest, that DPS becomes a must-have for all groups because it can DPS and provide something very important. It then results in that class being “meta” and everyone plays it, like rogues in m+ due to shroud. People then ask for shroud to be nerfed . . .

It’s a vicious circle.

The only real solutions are:

1. Make them all basically the same because then they are balanced

2. Separate them into roles (tank, healer, melee, range), makes the roles balanced

Retail WoW uses a combindation of 1 and 2.

FF14 does #2

ESO uses a system where people basically have a toolkit, and they pull out what seems best for the occasion. They kinda avoid balance by letting players just create the class themselves pretty much.

Wow Classic says classes have weakness and strengths, and certain ones are designed to be optimally played with a particular set-up at end-game.

Accept it, or go for one of the models I’ve listed above.

[Döt-grobbulus]

I think you pretending that this is zero-sum is sort of intellectually dishonest and you seem sort of smart to me so I think you’re probably just trolling me at this point

Nah, it was a joke about that old video, I’ll find it one sec.

[Skire-moon-guard]

Haha okay my bad.

[Hidalin-pagle]

[quote=“Greenshayna-argent-dawn, post:83, topic:335891, full:true”]

[quote=“Hidalin-pagle, post:77, topic:335891”]
Warrior is considered a hybird, they Tank / DPS in raid, (since they have no heal). [/quote]

Which leads to many people rolling warrior, which is exactly what has happened as it is now the most popular class by some margin, hence, why you avoid having such classes in the first place because it leads to everyone rolling that class.

Wow Classic has balance issues, but removing hybrid tax would make it worse.

As for your request for links and citations, go to youtube and see interviews with Kevin Jordan, Mark Kern, where they discuss how they originally developed classic.

No, I’m not a developer, but what I’m saying is based on what the wow developers say there.

[Greenshayna-argent-dawn]

It’s amusing but I don’t think BC really did that at all. I think it was the sweet spot in fact. Hybrid DPS was generally good but not great, and the raid utility they offered was substantial and useful.

The only thing I don’t like about TBC was the flying it hurt world interaction. And a little bit of the Hard mode dungeons… thought that not as much. killing 40 man raids was a major guild killer… which started the whole “social fiasco”

[Edgyjojomeme-nathrezim]

Well, i guess Shadow Priest (me) took a long straw in hybrid wars and we acutally ended up useful (thanks warlocks and insane DPS as long as we have mana)

[Sillidan-nazjatar (Sillidan)]

druids and rogues play different roles, they dont compete for spots in premades

rogues are very good in wsg and AV, they can be alright in AB but its not their strong suit

[Lazerchicken-kirtonos]

This. This right here is key. It wouldn’t be necessary to rebalance a class as long as their “niche” utility were made more valuable. Obviously it’s not going to happen, but bump up Moonkin Aura to 5% or so, buff Windfury and totems overall…

[Skire-moon-guard]

Which leads to many people rolling warrior, which is exactly what has happened as it is now the most popular class by some margin, hence, why you avoid having such classes in the first place because it leads to everyone rolling that class.

Ehh, everyone is playing Warrior because they are undoubtedly the best character to play for everything but leveling. PvE, raids, dungeons, post-cap soloing, they really have it all. Being the best-scaling DPS class was a mistake, sure, but you wouldn’t want to knock them down to Enh Shaman DPS levels.

[Dunwar-old-blanchy]

The discussion of the hybrid tax, and those who lament against it, always revolves around the same thing: damage.
No one ever asks, for example, why palladins and shamans have a hybrid tax that hurts their ability to tank, or why disc doesn’t heal as efficiently as holy does.

Overall I agree with you, except on this point.
This is actually a subject that is brought up frequently.
Pallys lacking a taunt making them unsuitable Tanks or OTs for raids. Also being too mana dependent.
Shaman having some tanking talents and abilities but not enough to be legitimately effective tanks (without over gearing/leveling content)

[Argorwal-ysera (Argorwal)]

And Moonkins were really good at tanking bosses with ranged physical damage in Burning Crusade, but that’s a niche thing that’s only useful on a few encounters. I get what you’re saying, but Warriors and Druids are good enough at dealing with adds that you probably won’t seek out a Paladin to do it. But okay, fair enough.

When did a ranged tank ever receive physical damage?

We used warlocks for Leotheras and Illidan. Never considered using a boomkin.

A bit ironic though with CoS being the first raid in ages with a real range tank and boomkins are preferred.

[Argorwal-ysera (Argorwal)]

This. This right here is key. It wouldn’t be necessary to rebalance a class as long as their “niche” utility were made more valuable. Obviously it’s not going to happen, but bump up Moonkin Aura to 5% or so, buff Windfury and totems overall…

Or put additional utility/buffs deep in the dps tree. And maybe add a mana return as % of int in a deep talent.

O wait, thats exactly what TBC did to hybrids.

[Soullessone-rattlegore]

I love classic, I hate how it drew people from the fringes and let them take over the game. The your’e not 60 and no epic mount you noob people, aka the basement dwellers.

[Skire-moon-guard]

Sorry, I actually meant magical damage. See: Kiggler the Crazed. Yes I know the fight was easy, but I tanked him every time.

[Argorwal-ysera (Argorwal)]

But boomy doesnt get any inherent magic damage reduction (that i can recall)?

Not saying its bad to use a moonkin just surprised. We always used a master demonoligist soul link warlock searing pain spam.

Interesting.