As long as the number of repetitions is high enough that it isn’t realistic for Mythic raiders who don’t do M+ beyond a few per week do run the ilvl high enough to change their gearing rate I wouldn’t anticipate a problem in most cases. The challenge is finding a number of reps that discourages raiders from augmenting their gear without making it so high that it’s not really a benefit for exclusive M+ groups as well.
I understand this in principle, but I also understand that in practice, this doesn’t become a reality until several weeks in, when enough people have gotten a drop that it becomes likely that one of them gets it again. You were projecting 6 weeks from raid open to fully mythic geared, and I’m telling you, that isn’t remotely realistic. There won’t be much, if any, loot trading in the first few weeks while people build ilvl, and it gradually picks up as people gain items and then start to gain duplicates.
Never? So a tank gets a tanking trinket and switches to DPS loot spec even if there is other BIS gear on that boss? Again, you’re using an idealized version of loot drops to inform you model. Ideal =/= normal.
Up until SL, this could apply to some weapons as well. The tokens should help avoid this in the future.
Not having to watch a stupid bow drop 8 times in a row for 1 or 2 hunters will be a nice change.
Hot take, screw the vast majority. What do the vast majority get from mythic raid? Not a damn thing and the same should be true for the highest levels of mythic plus. If you want it, work for it. There’s always a Freehold that is equivalent to the first 3 of a raid and there’s always a KR that’s closer to the last few.
I’d honestly prefer a system that ups the rewards after Hall of Fame like with cross realm mythic. I don’t really have any feelings toward late tier (post nerf) CD players or x-1/x. I would, however, not think that it should interfere with the top 100.
Completely disagree. Unless we adjust mid level mythic ilvl to match the 17/18 loot (assuming 21/22 loot cap) it doesn’t have to match. As stated above, FH 20 is way easier than UR 20 or Temple 20. So as you get better at the whole set of dungeons you already have a scaling difficulty of acquisition.
Edit to clarify: I did my first 20 this season. I would not have been max ilvl without the weekly chest in every single tier. I wouldn’t have made the cut multiple seasons. I’m not putting myself above others, I’m saying that I didn’t deserve to be geared like the top end of any content branch.
Edit 2: I want to go from gear being “meant to be obtained” to “meant to be earned”.
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There wasn’t a single change that addressed this. Top guilds will require the weekly chest as they always have. This impacts heroic guilds and nothing else.
Agreed !
Much of the explanation back to individuals like you and I, though, around this topic / change is “let’s raiders raid, and not m+” - which is what I was making triple clear is 10,000% avoidable, and should not be held over our heads here.
I think I wasn’t clear earlier. I meant the vast majority of the set of mythic raiders and the vast majority of dedicated, key pushing M+ players. I wasn’t speaking about the WoW community at large. I think the majority of mythic raiders shouldn’t feel obligated to also hit M+ hard in order to be successful, and I think the majority of M+ players shouldn’t feel obligated to push mythic raiding in order to be successful. I think the majorities in both communities should be able to gear at a comparable rate. Players that choose not to do mythic raiding or M+ at high levels shouldn’t have access to mythic quality gear.
Maybe you still disagree with me, but I think that clarifies my position better.
What are you actually trying to say here?
It can never happen since you can only loot tank trinkets if you are in tank loot spec.
But they’ll get a weekly chest anyway from killing mythic bosses, something that wasn’t true in BFA. So the only reason they’d want to run M+ was if there was some M+ loot that was better than raid loot, which while not impossible because of stat priorities, is also not particularly likely, and the difference would be small at best.
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Small differences add up and if there’s a better piece from a M+ dungeon you can be sure raiders will try and get it.
It’s incredibly likely. Have you looked at any of the raid loot tables throughout BFA? Stat priorities are king in this game, that’s why Sims are so important and now with DR on Stat stacking, it’ll be even less likely that someone can focus exclusively on raid and build an optimal set. For some, Gettiku was the strongest weapon the entire expansion. The only items that were always better in BFA were raid trinkets.
It does, and I disagree less. I think it wouldn’t be worth the investments for the less intense crowd. There’s nothing that can be done about the WF/HoF players and what they’ll do, but I think scaling the m+ loot after those are decided (which for horde is a couple months at most) balances out that concern. Imo, it’ll be better than m+ 475 equivs being an absolute joke. I’m not ignorant to the knock on effect of adding higher ilvls past the easily done keys in that some will feel more compelled to push themselves, but I think this is outweighed by the extension of the content and may actually make it feel like less of a chore for some.
I mean, knocking out a piece of mind-numbing content for that extra mythic quality item is like doing islands to unlock an essence slot. It’s boring, but necessary.
I still see mythic raiders running 4-10 keys for the extra chance at gear they could use. 5-6 rolls is a bit better than 2-3, even if the gear is from m+. Heroic raiders are definitely running m+ because the gear will trump the gear they have access to.
If your platform is to create Heroic Raiding as the only gearing choice for players that cannot mythic raid, how would you feel about scaling up the M+ rewards to be out of their talent window (M 20s+)? As opposed to making the loot worthless to everyone (except those that disenchant)
It’s been mentioned here some, and I would assume the raiding community would be outraged, but would be interested to hear your sentiment.
My platform is to do the content that you enjoy and get the gear you’ve earned from it. I’m personally ok with the changes that were made. I’m not going to say I’m ecstatic about it like it’s the greatest change ever brought to the game, but we’ll say I’m a step above content and a step under happy.
Throughout BFA, I would have considered myself to do m+ first, heroic raid second, never set foot into mythic raid. With the changes, it will require me a minimum of 15 weeks if the stars align for me to reach close to max ilvl (or at least a competitive one), which is a vast improvement from how things are now, and more importantly requires me to invest a lot less time to get there as the end of dungeon loot is more filler and gives much less reason to really push. I feel like that gives me a lot more choice, if I want to push more dungeons, I can, if I want to spend more time trying to master these raid bosses so maybe I actually can start moving into mythic, I can, if I want to push arena rating, I can.
I wouldn’t be opposed to them increasing end of dungeon loot for higher keys, like a +20 would reward 226 and that be the cap, but I’d prefer they left the vault rewards as is.
I certainly don’t see the end of dungeon loot being worthless though. It’s still going to be an upgrade if that’s the content you’re doing unless you got a 226 piece in your vault the previous week etc. Obviously you’ll get to a point where it IS worthless a little faster than it is now, but most people doing keys are far more interested in their 475 pieces than they are the 465 from the dungeon itself, and if you’re doing +16 keys onward, the gear isn’t typically what you’re after in that key anyway, it’s just the rare bonus if you get an upgrade.
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There are rarely two spec specific items on any one boss and the other class items are typically universal.
I think the growing sentiment is that in order to succeed at the top in one, you are obligated to dedicate a lot of time to both.
Even if they’re not going for world first raid kills, it’s imperative that mythic raid teams maintain steady progress in order to retain and attract members. This requires a considerable amount of time to achieve, especially early in the tiers.
This need is growing steadily within the mythic plus community. Staying abreast of the top teams is important to ensure that you are hitting the important break points in relation to push weeks. If your team isn’t geared, or practiced in time for the push weeks you stand the chance of falling behind.
I think players like Jdotb and others who would prefer to be mythic plus only players are starting to feel the exact burnout that raiders are complaining about. The difference is that Blizzard is saying out loud that the raider’s health is more of a concern. I think they’re picking the lesser of two evils, but I think it’s going to be a growing issue which needs to be addressed.
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You’re 100% right about this, I apologize. I was living in some past where there were multiple tank spec items, but it really is just trinkets now. Sorry about sowing that confusion into the discussion.
Are there any other rewards that come from the weekly cache? I just got to thinking about things that would drive players to defeat higher keys and it occurred to me that this tier the cache drops Echoes, Titan Residuum and AP.
I don’t have any idea how valuable those items to individual players, but I for one made an effort to push well past 15s some weeks just for the sake of maximizing those rewards. I don’t even know if that’s good or bad. Maybe it’s a way to reward the completion of higher keys (read: more challenging level of content) than just handing out gear directly.
Farming M+ was too lucrative.
Heroic Nz gear was 460… M+ 15+ was 465.
I could sit there and farm M 15 for hours every night and full gear out in like a week if RNG was kind. If I was doing that through raiding it’d take me at least 1-2 months.
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Saw the newest post of no bonus loot rolls.
Like everything else in these changes it just screams bean counter influence over everything. Slow everything down. Forcibly spread around people to different content that they don’t want to do. All in the maximizing MAU numbers without actually bothering to improve useless loot like a haste piece on my brewmaster or a non-haste piece on my prot warrior or insert countless other examples.
Just rename the game to “world of weekly chests” already.
So many people (including ion and friends) think that we don’t care about loot currently because there is so much of it available. Wrong. We don’t care about it because so much of it is terrible with the wrong stats and no intention from the devs to fix it. So now they’re gutting loot availability and to compensate the improvement of secondary stat usefulness for all specs is…where ?
I haven’t taken a close look at the M+ loot tables in SL. Are there wonderful garbage analogues there like kul tiran cannon trinket from TD or mydas talisman trinket from AD ? You know stuff that makes you wonder “why does this exist ?”
Imagine grinding through M+ learning in SL with pure pugs as a tank spec (you know, being blamed for everything) for hours every day and with the new loot changes you might get one of these wonderful trinkets as your ONLY end-of-run loot for the whole week. Aren’t you thankful ? Do you “appreciate” your meager worthless loot ? Good lord what a horror show.
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Full gear is 475+. If you set the bar low like that, you can be fully 435 in a day.
I agree with the rest of your post, but if spammable 226 becomes available at +20, the easiest way to get top 100 raiding guild will be to buy carries. Even WF will be based on willingness to spam M+ rather than on who is best at raiding.
For any gear level to be relevant, it needs to not be spammable.
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