To not ruin my beloved spec Sub with the introduction of haste CDR in midnight. This one change will make the spec:
- More convoluted and actually add complexity to figure out breakpoints for each encounter.
- The current ebb and flow of the spec flows nice with the current CDR mechanics for SecTech and Shadow Dance why are we trying to replace it with an unequivocally worse implementation?
Improving haste is fine but it should not be tied to fundamentally changing CD breakpoints via CDR.
- Honestly at this point either double down and remove all the CDR and adjust the cooldowns and damage profiles accordingly
or
Just leave it as is, I honestly really enjoy how Sub plays but also am ok of it reverted back to some of its core original design before CDR was introduced.
No issues with any other change just please please please get rid of this haste CDR abomination. Its half baked and introduces more problems than intended.
TLDR:
- Either double down and get rid of all CDR in midnight and balance the spec accordingly
Or
- Keep the current CDR mechanics for SechTech and Shadow Dance because it actually flows nicely
3 Likes
Your suggestions seems reasonable to me.
Actually thinking about this further the biggest change if they are going down the route they are. Is its honestly time to just revert back to some of Sub’s former glory when Shadow Dance was our primary burst/major CD.
The mini game of lining up Symbols and Shadow Dance is in fact a nuisance as functionally you always want to use them together. Cant think of any other spec that has to play this juggle CD piñata for the core rotational gameplay loop
Suggestion:
- Its about time we get rid of Symbols of Death and combine that functionality directly into Shadow Dance
- Then adjust CD/Damage profile accordingly.
- I am leaning more towards the core rotational gameplay loop becoming more defined without CDR variance misaligning the rotational ebb and flow.
The biggest offender of why this new haste CDR mechanic simply doesn’t work:
- You ultimately still have to align Symbols and Shadow Dance so you functionally want them to have the same CD and need to try and mess around with haste to achieve those breakpoints. The spec will feel awful outside of achieving those breakpoints.
- Further more you still want to align Shadow Dance with Shadow Blades which means at 45 seconds you have to reduce the base CD on Shadow Dance to 30 seconds to functionally squeeze in a third Dance for Shadow Blades.
- So unless you are hitting these breakpoints (which anecdotally I read you need 50% haste!) you will still be functionally holding your CDs to align them completely devaluing the CDR pre-breakpoint.
4 Likes
Assassination currently juggles shiv with deathmark, thistle tea, and kingsbane. The difference is that shiv, deathmark, thistle tea, and kingsbane all play fairly nicely together with cd timing. However there’s a little bit of awkward wiggle play between dry shiv usage outside of deathmarks, but the stacking and making sure everything is playing together is there.
1 Like
Yep, this is the big problem with Dance atm. On Alpha Dance’s cooldown is 45 seconds, so you would need 50% haste (45 / 1.5) to get it down to 30 second cooldown, which will allow a third Dance every 90 seconds (Shadow Blades’s cooldown).
50% haste is not feasible, so unless things change the CDR on Dance is dead on arrival for anyone who optimally does dance with Shadow Blades.
The solution is clear: Shadow Blades needs to be changed to give Shadow Dance during its duration. I advocate replacing the full combo point generation aspect of it with Shadow Dance. I also think it would be cool for the shadow damage portion of Shadow Blades be replaced with summoning a shadow clone to synergize with our apex talents, but I can take or leave that.
I think as long as we get Dance included in Shadow Blades, getting haste CDR to Dance will be fine. That said, I do think haste CDR should be baseline for the ability and we should keep the talent as combo point usage reducing Dance’s cooldown (albeit slightly nerfed) so that during full uptime Dance’s cooldown is roughly 30-40 seconds. I don’t like having to grab talents to get haste to reduce CDR of Dance and Symbols - that feels wildly unnecessary.
1 Like
The one thing I must point out is that BlizZard doesn’t want stacking CDs to be happening too frequently in midnight. That is the plan but that is their overall design directive that they will continue to strive for.
doesn’t want stacking CDs to be happening too frequently in midnight
Exactly — they should address this by reducing the number of overlapping cooldowns, especially when their coexistence isn’t a net positive. Key points:
- Overlap issues: Why do we even need both Symbols and Shadow Dance? Shadow Dance alone could fulfill the same role, simplifying the kit and eliminating the constant friction of trying to sync abilities that are clearly meant to be used together.
- For the longest time since its inception Shadow Dance has been the primary steroid of the spec
- Core rotation design: The base rotation should function properly without relying on mandatory talents or stat breakpoints.
- Stats should enhance rotational flow, not enable it. Designing around specific haste or CDR thresholds is shortsighted.
- Energy economy falls into the same category — if the class requires talents or specific stats just to perform its baseline rotation, that’s a core design flaw. Levels, stats, and talents can improve energy flow (and CP generation), not make the spec playable in the first place. Anyone who’s leveled a rogue can tell you how drastic that difference feels.
Wishlist:
- Energy econ intrinsically baked into the spec not requiring mandatory talents/stats
- Talents/stats improving this is fine
- Thistle Tea removed (or at the very list the auto proc they added removed). Class adjusted accordingly
- Shadow Dance and Symbols consolidated
- Shadow Dance CD alignment with Shadow Blades baseline (no haste CDR)
4 Likes
im just so bored with rogue now
sub needs something interesting again.
i miss shadowy duel and paralytic poison. sub is too stale.
2 Likes
On that point more from a PvP perspective, I think its about time that Sap no longer has an out of combat stipulation it is an archaic remnant that no longer fits the current context of the game. Given all that has been stripped from the spec:
- KS increased to 30 seconds
- Lossof Shadowy Duel
- Cheap shot going on CD (with a charge system)
- Vanish losing duration on immunity (drastically reducing its efficacy)
- Loss of PvP talent that gave cloak Physical immunity as well.
- Stealth just in general being latently bug ridden (so many things arbitrarily break stealth when they shouldn’t in PvP) which can last for multiple patches or entire expansions!
- Plus with the general shift into less Dance uptime overall
- General reduction in self healing (Soothing only working with Vanish and no longer with Dance)
Tbh they should just make this baseline functionality of how Sap should work no other CC has this pre-condition of out of combat. It also is still gated by being able to access stealth. At the very least this could be an impactful PvP talent.
Also a very important point is that as Sub is being pushed into a less control/burst oriented spec then its self sustain and survivability needs to be addressed for parity. Sub has never been a spec that was designed to stand toe to toe. It was always about timing CDs, and timing burst around CC windows. Once a rogue gets caught with no cds/CC its lights out. Where Ret, DKs, Warriors, Feral, Enhance practically all other melee specs are designed to stand toe to toe while still having comparable CC levels and burst windows!
Based on talent calculators right now Sub has the best toe to to capabilities because it still has access to Fade to Nothing (which works with Shadow Dance along with stealth and vanish) and a 100% value Preemptive Maneuvers. There is also Exhilarating Execution too. And instead of taking Fade to Nothing as Sub you can take Cloaked in Shadows which means you can use CloS offensively, or defensively, and do not need to save it for a clean vanish.
Assassination has increased Leech and 100% value Preemptive Maneuvers but nothing else in the spec tree to help with survivability.
But Outlaw has 5% Combat Stamina and nerfed value of Preemptive Maneuvers. The extra versa (Thief’s versatility) is where Outlaw closes the gap with Sub and Assassination in terms of survivability.
I think for Sub to do better out of stealth they need to revert the nerf to Gouge more so than Kidney Shot. Right now with the new DR changes Kidney Shot will never DR if you use off CD.
Assassination can use increased Leech values and Outlaw Combat Stamina needs to be increased and un nerf the Premptive Maneuvers nerf.
Not so keen on Paralytic poison myself, but Shadowy Duel was a very interesting unique mechanic and losing it was a massive blow to the spec. If anything they should have doubled down on that aspect of sub, not remove it entirely.
3 Likes
Shadowy Duel was probably too powerful as it did not have many counters or outplay potential. But then again what is the counter to Ret bubble where they can heal themselves, do full damage, unlimited mobility and have stealth detection?
1 Like
because it was a warmode ability… not part of a tree.
sub who had burst shadowblades builds were OP with it.
it needs to be deep in the sub tree to fix this.
1 Like
was awesome when you were fighting 5+ targets at once… i.e. huntard pets / dk pets.
1 Like
A) General Design Thoughts:
Will post separately this got way too long
B) PVP:
This already is way longer than I originally anticipated so I will keep this part short and revisit in a later post.
Regarding Shadowy Duel I just want to say the following:
- It was one of the most unique, fun and cool abilities the spec had for PvP
- Yes it had limited counter play (could still be hit with AoE damage/CC/heals)
- Generally they could of introduced more counter-play and made some modifications to the ability
I will leave it at that for now I was going to go into detail for point 3) but I will digress for now.
I just want to close out by saying I would like to see some level of innovation for the class/spec moving into Midnight. As we shift into a less CC/burst oriented meta which especially impacts Sub arguably more so than other classes/specs.
Shadowy Duel 2.0
- Rip into the shadows directly teleporting to your target within X yards by-passing all vision constraints and leaving a clone behind for Y seconds.
- During this duration you are in an enhanced illusive state taking reduced damage (and reduced CC
? 
) from all other other targets and reducing the efficacy of heals/damage reduction your target receives by Z%
- At any point during the duration of the ability re-activate to instantly teleport back to your clone
Voila you have an insanely unique, cool and fun iteration with plenty of counter play wile still retaining the essence of what the ability provided. It also has a bunch of throttles allowing for balance tweaks by playing around with the X, Y, Z values.
2 Likes
i have a skill idea its called
make trees and walls stop arrows and spells going thru them
lols
1 Like
Ngl Lemix is corrupting me. Playing Sub with near infinite uptime on Dance and all CDs having no energy problems honestly feels fantastic! Going back to my retail rogue going to feel rough
just play high haste sub rogue / trickster and have no energy issues… add in thistle tea and its endless
The problem with that is:
- Sub to me is meant to be a burst oriented spec (high mastery) and playing a high haste build neither appeals or sounds fun to me
- More importantly what you described is suboptimal for both PvE and PvP
- Also new auto proc Thistle tea is super bad and the funny thing is the real value of the capstone is the Mastery not even the energy econ because as always you want to line everything in your Dance window and inside your Dance window in combination with Symbols there are no energy issues.
So really they just need to:
- Improve innate energy econ outside of dance moving into Midnight as they are shifting towards less uptime for it
- Get rid of Symbols and give that functionality baseline to Dance
- Thistle tea removed, or at the very least reverted not to have the auto proc nonsense. It completely defeats the purpose of the ability which is meant to be for methodical on demand energy.
- Which again for Sub it isn’t even truely used for the on demand energy it used for the mastery modifier
Thistle tea without the mastery isn’t really a capstone talent anymore IMVHO.
But it is still a good talent especially if it was available earlier in the tree for new players to the class or for leveling purposes.