I surely can’t be the only one who’s forgotten.
I’m serious! I haven’t played Sub since Legion.
3 Likes
I have not logged into BFA since classic launched and don’t plan to login to retail until next expansion, but when I did play BFA subtlety was my favorite. Absolutely oppressive PvP spec. If I had continued gearing and playing BFA, sub would be that much better with more mastery scaling.
I’ve seen the occasional sub rogue in PvP last season and that’s about it, I kinda forgot about them lok
Sub does fine, just no one plays it because it is less forgiving than the other two specs.
2 Likes
“Less forgiving” is pretty generous. I have the rotation down pat and the damage is still underwhelming.
1 Like
Subtlety was an absolute masterpiece of spec design from WotLK through WoD. Since Legion it is ruined trash.
Shadow Dance used to be the most exciting cooldown in the entire game. It was incredibly versatile, offering a complete spectrum between extreme burst and extreme control depending on how you spent your energy and globals. Under the new design for Shadow Dance, the spec is plagued by:
- Reduced options during Dance
- Dance burst is nerfed because it happens more often
- Reduced options when Dance is down
Regarding point #1, we had Garrote, Premed, Cheap Shot, Sap, and Ambush. Now it only allows us to use Cheap Shot, Sap, and Shadowstrike.
Regarding point #2, the depth of this point is underappreciated by many Rogues but it’s crucial to understand this to understand just how badly the spec has been ruined. Find Weakness used to ignore 100% armor (PvE) or 70% armor (PvP), but now ignores only 40%. This nerf was necessary due to the increased availability of Dance. This not only means that Dance is less impactful (in addition to being less versatile and interesting due to point #1 above) but also means that non-Dance openers are devalued as well. Find Weakness used to incentivize hit and run gameplay, getting restealths to pool energy and get huge burst in opening from Stealth. Now with nerfed Find Weakness and cooldown reduction on Dance from 223ing at something, we are incentivized to prioritize sticking to target to reset Dance charges as quickly as possible. This has ruined the once completely unique playstyle of Subtlety.
Finally point #3, arguably the worst of them all. Subtlety used to be a Rogue first, Subtlety second. Dance was a minute CD with no CDR and no charges, but when Dance was down you still had depth in the rotation and in the utility, with abilities like Gouge, Shiv, Poisons, Bleeds (not only the control of a physical DoT, but also setting up Sanguinary Veins), Slice and Dice (you would apply this in the passive phase while setting up for your next burst phase whether via Dance or a restealth), etc…
Now there is NONE of that depth outside of Shadow Dance. The spec is entirely designed around Shadow Dance, once the most exciting button in the game but now a stupid and mundane rotational piece which allows us the extremely one dimensional gameplay of spamming Cheap Shot.
Subtlety used to be the single coolest, most unique, deep, challenging, exciting, and fun spec in the entire game. The Legion and BFA editions of the spec are cruel insults to that awesome history.
10 Likes
Yea, it’s really terrible. Anyone telling you it is “okay” is lying or doesn’t know what they’re talking about. When all the top Rogues are Sin and Combat, literally all of them are, you can rest assured it is busted in the worse way. Even in the hands of skilled players they choose to not play it.
If you want burst damage in PvP as a Rogue you play Sin now. If you want control you play Combat. If you want to be a try hard, and you have to try VERY VERY hard, you play Sub.
1 Like
Subtlety was usually somewhat of a tryhard spec. Although the tuning is bad right now (likely a sign that Blizzard doesn’t want you to play it because they realize how terrible its mechanics are and plan to make significant changes in 9.0) tuning is actually the least of its problems. Even if it were tuned well it still wouldn’t hold a candle to how awesomely fun pre-Legion Subtlety was to play.
4 Likes
You’re funny.
1 Like
I don’t have any expectation that the changes they make will be enough to fix the spec and make it as good as the masterpiece that it used to be, but Ion Hazzikostas was very clear in his communication that they went too far with ability pruning and spec fantasy and intend to make more classic class abilities classwide across specs. That is a step in the correct direction for Subtlety since the new terrible mechanics are closely tied up in the cringe-inducing Fisher-Price sHaDoW mAgIc NiNjA sPeC fAnTaSy
Basically Subtlety got completely screwed from multiple angles starting with Legion:
- Spec fantasy over class fantasy
- Ability pruning
- CC Disarmament
- “We want to make Subtlety appeal to a wider audience” --Celestalon, Legion Beta Forums which meant both dumbing the spec down and homogenizing the spec to be less appealing to the most passionate and enthusiastic Subtlety fans and more appealing generic WoW players
2 Likes
As a rogue who just came back to BFA after 11 years away from the game (quit in TBC) I have to say these defined specs with this class fantasy nonsense is one of my least favorite things about the new WoW. I very much miss the old talent trees, and as someone who has played RPGs my entire life, I’m wondering how they even conceivably found three distinct “fantasies” for rogues in the first place. Other than one that operates more in the shadows and one that operates more on the front lines, I’m struggling to think of a third typical “rogue” archetype that’s even present in other games. (Ranged rogue maybe?)
As an old combat rogue, and current outlaw rogue, I very much miss having access to bleeds and poisons.
Just feels like we have too few things we do as rogues to warrant three distinct specs. Maybe two would’ve been the better way to go with this, to avoid the inevitable problem of one of three rogue specs feeling too pruned because there simply aren’t enough core rogue abilities to spread across three distinct specs.
7 Likes
I meant from your raid or group.
The sub redesign in Legion was honestly the most disappointing thing I’ve seen in this game.
Too bad Blizzard is too stubborn to go back.
7 Likes
Your words are true; it was completely hated and unwanted by the existing Subtlety fans. I’ve played this game since 2005 and mained a Rogue the entire time, and the Legion Subtlety redesign is the worst thing Blizzard has ever done to Rogues, and in my opinion the worst thing they’ve ever done in the history of WoW period.
1 Like
Sub, for me, was a spec that the “class fantasy” of Legion made me gravitate to it. And I know talking to other rogue players claimed it was a shadow of it’s former glory, I personally never liked sub and found it’s Legion iteration really fun.
That certainly didn’t carry over to BFA. And they made changes that completely violates “if it aint broke, don’t fix it” mentality they should have taken with the spec.
1 Like
You are entitled to your opinion but my opinion is that the perspectives of those who have loved Subtlety from the beginning should count for much, much more than those who only started playing it in Legion. You got to borrow it for a little while but it’s still our spec.
5 Likes
This right here. Yes everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but Legion destroyed the beautiful spec that Subtlety was. Shoe pointed out awhile ago that most people who already played Sub hated the Legion redesign while people who were newer to Sub or just rogue in general really liked it. The Sub redesign was what drove me away from “retail” more than any of the other massive problems with modern WoW.
I can’t believe we’re this many years out from “Class Fantasy” and still we’ve gotten nothing more than an “oops” from Ion. I just want my old spec back. Maybe 9.0 will fix it, but given how many times we’ve said that over the years, I have little to no hope left.
2 Likes
Haha cry more. It’s all you do on any wow forum.
1 Like
Show me on the murloc plushy where the bad rogue ganked you.
4 Likes
The spec was a masterpiece and they need to bring it back. It’s easy to do:
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Make Dance an exciting, unique, and versatile cooldown again – the most exciting cooldown in the game like it used to be.
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Make the gameplay outside of Dance include the classic Rogue utility belt once again, the full plate of sneaky tricks.
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This goes in hand with #2: delete the idiotic Ninja spec fantasy and pretend this insult to Rogue history never ever happened at all.
2 Likes