I meant more like “what does it mean to embody the Horde” because the Horde is and has been a lot of things since its inception.
Saurfang even alluded to this in BfA, when he said that Thrall and Vol’jin were not the proper successors of Blackhand’s legacy, Sylvanas was.
If the Forsaken’s positive future involves them claiming some sense of pre-Scourge identity, I’m not sure how that embodies the Horde either since the Forsaken doing so would necessarily make them embody the Alliance more.
I don’t know if it’s ever stated outright, but the impression I got from that sentiment was “doing better, moving on from a dark past, proving that you’re not a monster just because you look like one.”
This, pretty much. The theme of the WC3 vision of the Horde before Blizz got board and decided they’d rather have a half-mad plot-device rather than a faction. The original reason they were allowed in was the expectation that they could one day become something that could contribute to that vision. What a good time…
There are two reasons the Forsaken were put in the Horde and both reasons involve the dualism of the Horde that leads it to constantly be at war with itself.
The first is the motive you guys have given. Cairne wanted to help them, thought that they could overcome their monstrous nature through spiritualism and the power of friendship and thought that the Horde was the avenue to do that.
(It should be noted, incidentally, that I don’t think that the fact that it was a Tauren who was their biggest proponent is a coincidence. They only knew the Horde of Warcraft 3 and knew virtually nothing of its history, nor did they know anything about the Eastern Kingdoms or its history what implications would therefore arise from admitting the Forsaken. There is a sense of naive optimism from Cairne here that I think is interesting)
The other motive was the cynical, geopolitical one borne out of a desire for the Horde to dominate its enemies, real or imagined. The Alliance had been badly damaged by the Third War and as a consequence there was a major power vacuum in the Eastern Kingdoms. The Horde capitalized on it, opportunistically, in order to gain a major strategic foothold in the Eastern Kingdoms so that the Alliance couldn’t move back in. The fact that this would be considered outrageously antagonistic by the Alliance didn’t matter, nor did the Horde’s inability to actually make the Forsaken behave, because power was power and the Horde needed power.
(I’m not making this up, this was pretty much spelled out as part of the Horde’s motivations here in Chronicles Volume 3)
Thus, the Forsakens membership in the Horde was simultaneously a decision borne out of both sympathy AND aggression.
If you ask me, the events of BfA were a culmination of a path that the Horde had chosen to go down after the Third War with the Forsaken and the dualism that resulted in the Horde making that decision in the first place was the central Horde narrative arc of BfA, embodied most prominently in Saurfang.
Whether or not the Horde chooses to shirk power in favor of the idealism embodied by Cairne is what is most critical in deciding their future from this point onward. The Jailer would prefer that they didn’t, which is why the Mawsworn abducted Thrall and Baine.
I mean, its not like the Horde is really in any position to do anything in their absence anyway. Plus, Hamuul and Eitrigg are Baine and Thrall’s seconds. They don’t concern me. Plus, Lor’themar is essentially holding down the fort in their absence, so I’d hardly consider him a Warmonger. We even got rid of Wix, and replaced him with a pretty “Good Guy Gazlowe”. Who’s open to trade with the Alliance, at a markup.
The rest of the roster save maybe Geya’rah is pretty damned chill, even if the Horde wasn’t in such a bad position where they can’t start anything anyway (not that that would stop Blizz). And luckily, her whole gimmick is that her people (that she does care deeply about) are so utterly dependent on the Horde they can’t afford to rock the boat. Talanji is in a similar position as Rah, but its more her kingdom was just on the razor’s edge like 3 times in the last 2 years. She’s got plenty of her own local problems to deal with. Rokhan has never in his history ever started fights, he just gets really into ending them on his own terms.
At this point, while it sure as hell wont stop Blizz, the Horde can’t do anything. I get that wont matter to the company that forced the last two despots into the drivers seat, but truly … its long overdue for script flipping here. With the Horde allowed some consolidation (including the Forsaken under Calia and Voss), and the Alliance can get some genuine proactiveness and internal intrigue. Rather than what is likely to happen with Tyrande’s grievances swept quietly under the rug of the Alter of Anduin.
IIRC Gazlowe and Rokhan both voted in favor of Talanji wanting to resume attacking the Alliance in Shadows Rising
To be fair, Rokhan did that because he feels responsible for getting Talanji into this mess in the first place. As for Gazlowe? Sigh … I have no idea why he’d vote that way. In 8.2.5 he was outright saying “I forgot how good it was to work with the Alliance”. At this point I honestly haven’t decided if its a good or bad thing that there aren’t any more writers pets on the Horde anymore. At best we have the Pet of an Ex Dev, and a Pet of an actual writers Pet. I don’t expect much investment by Blizz due to that. But is that a bad thing?
I actually checked and I got it wrong, it was Rokhan and Geya’rah who voted in favor of continuing the war, not Gazlowe. My bad.
Oh, OK, that makes sense.
And yeah, Rokhan sided with Talanji because he feels responsible for all the crap he brought down upon her as the Zandalari’s recuiter. Geya’rah … is not fond of Draenei (we’ll see if Blizz ever addressed that in any direction). And to be honest, her position on the council is pretty ceremonial with her people’s current situation. She’s such an absurd fish out of water scenario she has no idea what she’s even doing half the time. Which is why I don’t hold it against her for staying on the “Loyalist” side. She wasnt even on the timeline when Teld happened; has no idea what the meaning of that event even is; and had no notion of who Saurfang and Thrall were.
EDIT: Not a lot of incentive for her to break her oath to the Warchief she just swore.
It wasn’t aggression, it was a defensive measure. That’s literally spelled out. Plus helping against the Lich King.
Thrall invited Sylvanas Windrunner to Orgrimmar. He had sympathy for ther followers - the orcs had once been corrupted as well, and that had been a hard legacy to overcome - but he also recognized the strategic value of the Forsaken. They lived in the ruins of Lordaeron. The city would be a valuable foothold in the Eastern Kingdoms should the Alliance ever provoke war again.
More importantly, the Scourge had not been eradicated; it had been only temporarily defeated. The Horde needed every ally it could find to protect its lands from the Lich King’s undead army.
Let’s remember the context of this section. This IMMEDIATELY AFTER (literally the following passage from) the section that outlines Kul Tiras (part of the Alliance at the time) had attacked and tried to wipe them out in a war of aggression.
Defensively taking large amounts of territory that the Alliance had just lost to the Scourge in order to use it as a foothold to attack the Alliance from if the Horde chooses to. Right.
This is the same rationale that Daelin could use. He was “defensively” trying to ensure that the Horde was never in a position to threaten the Alliance again.
Sylvanas entire argument in favor of attacking Teldrassil and the Alliance was using this “defensive aggression” angle.
That’s what the lore says.
Same rational, different actions. One is allying, the other is genocide.
And that actually was aggression.
It says that the Horde believed it was defensive. Just like how the Horde believed that all their followup wars with the Alliance were defensive.
But they were just lying to themselves. Saurfang himself alluded to this “great lie” that the Horde was founded on. That their wars were inherently just and glorious, simply because they told themselves that they were.
You can see this pattern even going back into the Old Horde. They had to attack the Draenei, because if they didn’t the Draenei would attack first. “Defensive.” They had to attack Stormwind because they needed the land to survive. “Defensive.” They needed to attack Lordaeron because the humans would want vengeance. “Defensive.”
Yes. I mean, that’s defensive to an unbiased person. Didn’t realize I had to quality that much.
The Alliance allied Kul Tirans literally just tried to genocide them. This is the immediately after that.
Notice the word ‘attack’ in all these. The event in question was no attack.
Point of fact, the Draenei were also claimed to be part of the cause of the natural disasters destroying Draenor. And they believed the Draenei had already attacked when the Bladewind were wiped out.
lol
“Well, to an unbiased person (me) I am clearly right.”
Except other factions in the Alliance, namely Jaina and her followers, made clear that they were not associated.
What’s more, Daelin’s failed (and, as it turns out, Alliance independent) campaign failed in part due to Alliance assistance. The Horde deciding that they’ll retaliate by ensuring that the Alliance can’t reclaim their zombie infested homelands (and giving the zombies there a blank cheque to do whatever they want with the support of the Horde) is massively disproportionate.
but he also recognized the strategic value of the Forsaken. They lived in the ruins of Lordaeron. The city would be a valuable foothold in the Eastern Kingdoms should the Alliance ever provoke war again.
How exactly should this be interpreted if not as an explicit acknowledgement that the Horde’s interest in the territory was for its offensive potential?
I feel like this topic has been discussed to death on here. And sadly, its just sort of a death spiral. With the AU Iron Horde really muddying the waters of that once dual tragedies on MU Draenor. Blizz playing real fast and loose with “Ner’zhuling” Horde Race characters over and over again has had consequences to the nuance of the WC3-WotLK Horde/Alliance era.
Not only that. Darkspears have a nasty history with Alliance. Battle of Dazar’Alor must’ve give awful flashbacks from the time Daddy Proudmoore attacked Darkspears, at their first and second home.
Rokhan wanting Proudmoore’s head as much as Talanji makes perfect sense. Altho they should postpone it and work on getting good opportiunity for that.
I’m not unbiased. But I can account for it despite being an Alliance fan.
What you mean is there wasn’t unilateral support. Doesn’t mean this wasn’t a clear risk.
If the Alliance are the potential provokers, that’s explicitly a defensive preparation.
Does it? He’s a WC3 Legacy, and worked really close with Jaina in the campaign against her Father. He was also led the charge in the final assault against Daelin alongside Rexxar and Nazgrel (man I miss him). So he “got” the head of the Proudmoore that attacked his home. Frankly, it feels more natural for him to be invested in the conflict due to his feelings of responsibility with Talanji, over some investment in Jaina. Him gunning for her head would feel as forced as Rexxar’s did in the War Campaign given their history with her.
You really will argue about anything with anyone huh
You know that the Horde DID end up using the territory for another one of their “defensive” attacks on the Alliance, right? They did it like 3 times in fact.