There are three remaining :3 Four if you count the forsaken of Lordaeron but they don’t identify as human anymore, and the Scarlets are too few in number to be considered a nation.
Kul’Tiras is facing constant political turmoil due to all if it’s noble houses being dead. Or dying. Or actively in exile. Their navy, their pride and joy, was lost to Nazjatar. Also may be dealing heavily with the void.
Stormwind busted its unions right before vanilla and has been dealing with basically a rebellious workforce of skilled labour ever since. Their people are starving, hungry, or in the military - and that’s it.
Dalaran has been through numerous wars and has tried to be a neutral state for a while. Jaina messed that up during MoP but generally it’s no longer a human majority.
Military activities happened within Teldrassil too yet that is not an excuse for what happened because in that fire innocent civilians were killed should be no different for Camp Taurajo.
Sorry, but collective securities and imperial structures aren’t based around things like “Just be nice to people :))))”
These are distinct nations with legitimate national interests. It’s perfectly legitimate for them to wage war to secure those interests.
WoD says “hello.”
Oh, really? I thought that was just because the other Horde leaders were similarly engaged in treason equal to or worse than what Vol’jin was getting up to. I take it you never bothered reading any of the books or quest text with a remotely neutral eye?
incoming “yeah we firebombed them and unleashed convict battalions on the residents but we let them run through the nice big razor thorned hills filled with murderpigs so we’re morally pure”
The answer to this is so obvious I’m gonna give you the shot to redeem yourself by pointing out the big obvious answer
You uh…have a lot to work through my friend. Perhaps relax on your beliefs regarding the right of national sovereignty in Warcraft. The Horde is focused far less on the distinctness of their nations as being separate from the horde, and moreso focused on how those distinct parts make up a whole. Everyone depends on one another. The Horde is…all a lotta folks have. Most of your “distinct nations” as you say are barely able to defend or provide for themselves due to the actions of the Alliance. They’re waging a defensive war at best.
I don’t know. I feel like you’re deliberately looking for examples that prove your point instead of looking at the big picture. WoD was Garrosh using his knowledge of the clans’ history and his own authoritarian doctrines to restructure orcish society. If you read any of the quest text, you’d know that it wasn’t popular with the entirety of any clan - and that most who resisted were slaughtered. Same went for the old horde. It’s not in their nature - there are just leaders who get the biggest and the strongest to murder everyone else.
Also “treason”? That’s a joke, right? Garrosh was stepping on everyone’s feet. Once you do that loyalty can mean heck all.
I’m just sitting on that quote of yours “The right to wage war”
Who doesn’t? If they’re just a single village of gnolls trying to defend themselves/provide for their children via raids on the better stocked/well armed colonizing neighbors would you count a genocide of their culture as a valid response? Are you looking at this through an imagined set of rules or…how are you thinking about this? I’m so curious.
Tell you what, we can talk capitol parity when you lose half the amount of core racial leaders that the Horde has. And the ones that came back to life don’t count!
Varian - Died like a real King.
Magni - Voice of the literal World.
Tyrande - Retired to the next World Tree slated for burning.
Genn - Retired to be Anduin’s personal Butler.
What sort of gobbledygook nonsense is this? “Erm, you have like a lot to work through, my gal, you think distinct peoples should engage in high politics?”
Also, this is literally how these things were characterized in WCII & III.
Not what I’m talking about, you seem to have missed the point. Go reread the post again.
I think you’re posting a just-so story based off from some half-remembered game you played as a kid, without any further thought.
“The Shattering” even shows that this quality persisted while Thrall was Warchief. Orcish citizens were celebrating a brutal massacre of Night Elves in Ashenvale shortly after the Northrend campaign concluded, and Thrall was in such a tough spot politically that he couldn’t actually condemn the action internationally, despite the recent ceasefire getting flimsier with each crisis.
Are you seriously trying to pretend that a single line about the Shadowmoon applies to the Warsong, Shattered Hand, Blackrock, etc.?
No, it’s literally not a joke, and the fact that this is your response shows me you have no idea what you’re talking about here. So let me explain things clearly:
Vol’jin:
-Made death threats against Garrosh (“More Than Expected”)
-Participated in numerous subversive anti-Garrosh meetings (“Tides of War”)
-Sailed halfway across the world to appoint himself as a “check” on his sovereign’s power despite no legal basis
Baine Bloodhoof:
-Leaked information to the Alliance concerning an impending Horde attack during a time of war (“Tides of War”)
-Participated in subversive anti-Garrosh meetings (“Tides of War”)
Sylvanas Windrunner:
-Deliberately disobeyed orders from the Warchief (“The Hunt for Sylvanas,” “Tides of War”)
-Murdered Kor’kron (5.4 World Update)
Lor’themar Theron:
-Deliberately disobeyed orders from the Warchief (“Tides of War”)
-Tried seceding from the Horde and joining the enemy faction (“What’s in the Box?”)
Gallywix:
-Deliberately disobeyed orders from the Warchief, in a manner intended to sabotage the war effort (“The Blank Scroll”)
And what were their criticisms of Garrosh? What prompted all of this subversive and treasonous behavior?
Well, Baine and Vol’jin couldn’t stand the fact that Garrosh ended a ceasefire, after the Alliance declared war in WotLK. The Horde struggled with food insecurity and economic reliance on a hostile foreign power (“Glory”“Heart of War”) in the best of times. After the Wrath Gate, the Night Elves severed all trade with Orgrimmar, and revoked Orcish hunting rights in Ashenvale, which seriously raised the prospect of children starving (“The Shattering,”).
What was Lor’themar’s problem? Well, Garrosh didn’t explicitly tell him to bring guards for the Reliquary when he ordered them to excavate Mogu Artifacts in Kun Lai, for starters. Even though they were on an unknown continent with significant native presence, and the Blood Elves had deployed elsewhere in Pandaria in force, Lor’themar felt “thrown to the wolves.” He also didn’t like the fact that Garrosh’s use of the Sunreavers to steal the Divine Bell led to the purge of Dalaran. Somehow, he was shocked that Aethas faced consequences for inhabiting a city that had declared in favor of the Alliance months earlier (“Tides of War”).
Sylvanas? The biggest problem for her was Garrosh’s prohibition of the Blight…
I am literally referring to Garrosh waging a 100% justifiable war aimed at achieving economic independence and food security for the Horde.
Horde’s entire storyline was underdogs trying to do good in a world that hates and misunderstands them since WC3. It was more of the Forsaken that had that ‘evil’ vibe.
They tried to survive by doing good for each other. That’s not the same as being good. The orcs weren’t good. Trolls weren’t either, the tauren were peaceful, forsaken were insane. It was a good combination and it was working.
Then when the Horde chracters and the Alliance characters started making friends it all went to crap for the Horde. Now the orcs are just sad green guys, the goblins rapidly developed a conscience, or that’s what’s being hinted at with the new gob leader. And the forsaken who were by far the most interesting race in WoW are turning into depressed rotting guys who sound like a really nice grandpa. Sod off.
I’m actually hoping that Metzen puts us back on the right track.
