Honestly the ONLY change I want to see in AV is to make it to where you can only spawn at your cave if no other GYs are available. I just feel like the horde spawn cave wouldn’t be an issue if they spawned at FWGY when IBGY is taken just like ally spawn at SPGY if SHGY is taken.
17 Likes
Premades being disabled came well after horde win rate rising to around 75%.
Horde playing defense is the main factor. The ibgy choke is to strong.
As well as the proximity of horde cave resing to ibgy.
only one change needs to be made to even out win rates.
If players never resed in the cave res location until all other actual graveyards where lost things would change dramatically.
7 Likes
I’ve never considered point 3 a choke point, I guess that’s why I considered there only being two on defense. Point 3 always had the issue of the valley and the upper levels which is easy for horde to stack range on and fire freely onto alliance below.
Point 2 is also a weak Choke point requiring players to go behind their own gy, allowing for horde to capture it and then re-spawn close by.
Point 1 and Point 4 are the only real valuable choke points, but point 4 requires the sacrifice of both southern bunkers, balinda and the mines. Point 1 however Is extremely powerful.
The problem then with the choke points comes down to the capabilities when comparing horde to alliance.
IBGY is the strongest choke in the map, it protects all nodes even Galv. The GY is very close and allies have to go through a narrow pass in order to take it, which prevents stealth from entering if you have players taking precautions.
Frostwolf keep is also valuable almost as much as bridge, with proper knock backs and postioning players are capable of reducing team numbers and killing wiping those that remain.
On offensive side the IWB choke point is the second strongest choke in the game, acquiring three objectives over the two alliance can on Point 1. It also has a close GY for rezzers, whereas the enemy GY is far away to put them at a disadvantage making it a war of attrition. Furthermore if alliance go through bottom path, knock backs and height advantage make it easy for horde teams to completely wipe players. Point 2 is known as the rath strat, and its winrate is in the 90% just because how op the point is.
The entire map is heavily slanted towards one side which is the problem, they could make it very close to even if they just added an extra path into IBGY, along with movign the cave back.
1 Like
I’m laughing at this picture point four is the bridge which isn’t a chokepoint because you can jump around it, point three screws over alliance because of that path around where horde players can rain aoe on your graveyard effectively trapping you, point two is actually a choke beneficial for horde because guess where you get sent if you lose SH. Point two is the choke horde use to try and prevent alliance from getting any lieutenants at all it doesn’t benefit alliance in any shape or form.
5 Likes
We’ve been saying this, for 15 years. This is why some of it was changed later in retail, maybe you even switch sides to keep it fair? Not sure, Haven’t played AV in retail for lik 13 years.
But yes, at least one of you see why we liked premades. The map is built to, maybe unintentionally, favor Horde.
4 Likes
What I dont get is how you guys didnt notice this… You guys never noticed that you could intercept the Alliance each game right at the base of the hill by Balinda before the ramp to SF?
Horde do it EVERY game… Mages dismount there and nova a ton of 100% mounted alliance to slow them every game. How could you not notice that you are literally on the other side of the field of strife BEFORE THE ALLIANCE EVEN REACHES IT.
It just seems like it should be so obvious… Oh well. Its a dead horse now. This is why we boycott it. No need to fight against an imbalance like that. AB and WSG will do just fine.
22 Likes
It doesn’t matter who gets there first, I do not understand why Alliance think that is the sole reason they lose. When I do AV, Alliance lose skirmishes just about anywhere on the map. This is player issue, not a map issue.
Alliance have faster Q’s and as a result, they do not care to win as much, take a look at how many AFKers they have more example. Why did Alliance win so much back when they had premades? They had a group of players willing to try. Nowadays? Those guys are done ranking / or are playing WSG/AB.
4 Likes
I think you are confused. Regardless of how the alliance plays, the map layout is still heavily in favor of the horde. There is still an extreme lack of balance in AV with the Cave and the value of choke points.
Because a coordinated group can always beat a bunch of pugs. You ever see a premade vs a premade? most times horde wins unless they are far worse than the alliance team
4 Likes
That does not change the fact that even if there is a complete stalemate from the starting positions on the field, Horde can still summon Lok’Holar and easily gain the upper hand and win.
As well as, from the starting positions, Horde has GY’s leading to both assault positions on SHGY and very close in the case of SFGY.
Why are Alliance losing skirmishes? Possibly because they had no time to recover from the initial assault before the close reinforcements from SFGY, obtained by default at the start, overtook them on a subsequent wave.
2 Likes
Those are “red herring” arguments. And given a different perspective, they self-defeat. You know why the serious PvPers on Alliance don’t play AV? They believe it is a poorly designed map, meaning they have no chance to win due to the imbalance. Why do they think this? Because no matter how hard they try, no matter how many pre-made 5-man groups join in, they still lose.
Conversely, those same groups win often in WSG and AB, where they get more honor-per-hour playing other maps where they can win more often. This keeps them competitive against other rankers, who they would lose rank points against if they queued AV too often.
Blaming the players is a scapegoat. If horde lost all the time, do you think they would continue queuing? No, eventually they would preserve those precious moments in BG’s for games they could win.
Imagine for a moment if you could, how difficult it would be to win if Alliance could get to the SF graveyard before you, cap it before you could get there, then play defense and hold it, but you couldn’t push to SHGY without getting past their defense at SF GY first. Sure, you could run past - if they didn’t slow you down, poly etc. and kill half your team if you did manage to run through, making you and three others the sole survivors to reach SHGY. Oh, and then imagine that Alliance had multiple paths to get to IBGY without being hit by archers from your towers. And just as you’re about to cap SHGY, a res wave spawns. You all die, sent back to IBGY, which is suddenly capped by the Alliance zerg, having pushed you all back from SFGY. Now your whole team is at FWGY waiting to spawn.
Imagine this has happened every single game, and after playing fifty matches where this happens, most players are tired of trying. So they stop fighting, hanging out in the mines, starting tunnel, killing harpies or fishing. There is general disinterest in playing the game anymore, as the result is always the same. Alliance winning every match, no matter how hard you try or what you do.
You think they’re any better than you? Nope. You just want a fair chance to win. You want the same advantages they use every single game.
So “players are bad” is not enough of a reason. It is a symptom of the problem. The problem is isolated in several facts: 1. The Horde starting cave is closer to mid-field than the Alliance starting cave. 2. The Horde graveyard furthest from their starting point is only accessible via a singular path, which takes more time for Alliance players to reach than for Horde to reach the furthest Alliance graveyard (see point number 1). 3. The aforementioned Horde graveyard is accessible via a route which is defended by the archers from the nearby horde tower, unlike the two routes available to Horde to the correlating Alliance graveyard, which is only defended by NPC’s. 4. The NPC’s defending the aforementioned Horde graveyard are in closer proximity to various pathing Horde Lieutenants than compared to Alliance Lt’s which are mostly easily avoided. 5. When defending the furthest graveyard (IBGY) Horde respawn at their starting cave, with a 30-second run to defend should Alliance turn the flag at IBGY. In comparison, the correlating Alliance GY results in a 1-minute+ run-back to defend their graveyard. 6. More players can re-spawn in a wave within the cave than at the graveyards, making fact 5 more advantageous to defending Horde.
These facts provide players in the game a vastly superior tactical advantage when defending, also allowing for offensive/defensive actions. For instance, if Alliance challenge IBGY, Horde players can camp the route to the flag by utilizing their tower’s archers to help them kill any reinforcements arriving late, isolating the group challenging IBGY. Alliance cannot cut off reinforcements effectively, due to the need to spread out defensively. This forces them into the narrow ravine within the GY respawn area, making them vulnerable to AoE attacks. Horde have room to spread out from their respawn point, making AoE attacks less effective. However, they can choke an Alliance attack from receiving assistance, while utilizing terrain advantages to keep the Alliance from pressing beyond the flag.
Alliance have no way of resorting to different strategies. The only strategies available have been done, and all known counters are routinely practiced by the horde. Knowing the strategies and counters to them does not make players better. It means they effectively exploit their resources to win. Props, but that’s just a lame excuse. In your reasoning, if I wanted to “get better” I would simply join the easier side. I could join Horde if I wanted to, and I would win all the time. I wouldn’t have to try nearly as hard as I do on Alliance. I would laugh my way to win after win after win, and I could call my opponents weak and stupid. Even when I get outplayed, I would win, and I could call them noobs.
You realize I HATE dying to my own class, because of how rarely it happens? You realize the other day I died to a rogue, and my entire team was shocked, because of how rarely that happens? You realize how often we take on 5 horde and beat them with 3 players? You realize how often we only lose because of an unbeatable counter to our strategy? You realize how often we try so hard, and we get nothing? You realize how arrogant and ignorant the perpetual Horde comments of “get better” are? Do you realize that most of the Horde players who win so much are simply not better, and are simply taking advantage of their situation?
No. You do not care. Or perhaps you simply wish to maintain your advantage. Either way, this makes you, as I said, arrogant or ignorant.
27 Likes
The problem with AV map is that alliance are forced to allow horde to capture things to open map up for a win if both teams are relatively even. The only way alliance can just rush IBGY from the start and actually cap it and hold it, is if the horde team is WAY worse than the ally team. Otherwise, we have to let horde capture another GY (usually SF) to trigger them to rez at that spot so we can actually get past them. Horde do not have to sacrifice anything, they can just brute force their way through a straight line for a win.
And the best(easiest) fix for this issue, is to make it to where neither faction can rez at starting cave unless ALL GY’s are captured.
6 Likes
OP gets it, he was unplugged from the horde Matrix.
8 Likes
Also GY’s spawn 10 people at a time, the cave spawns 20?
7 Likes
Interesting how the horde have to get through 3 to 4 choke points and yet we seem to always steam roll the alliance.
Just admit it. You are not good at pvp. The alliance’s only strategy with every single AV game seems to have the mages do everything while everyone sits back and waits for the horde to pressure you into retreating.
I’ve been playing AV games back to back to get exalted and this seems to be the number one strategy. It is not very effective.
2 Likes
You have no idea what you are talking about. When you contest SHGY we spawn at SPGY 10 people at a time. That means we can only send reinforcments 10 at a time back to try recover it. And that ride from SPGY to SHGY is almost a minute long. When we contest IBGY, horde spawn in waves of 20 about 10 seconds away from IBGY while we have to run all the way from SHGY or even from SPGY if SHGY is contested. If that is the case, reinforcements literally CANNOT get through that choke to back up the remaining ally at IBGY. This advantage is so hard to overcome unless we let you take something first so you aren’t spawning at starting cave. Why do ally have to sacrifice objectives to have a chance at winning while horde can just go in a straight line north?
Horde basically have 2 graveyards right next to each other at IBGY, and one cannot ever be contested and spawns 20 at a time.
27 Likes
Why would Trump say that? Because it’s true? Because even an idiot can realize it is advantageous to one team? Because he isn’t blind to the reality of what is going on? Don’t bring him into this - it just makes him correct anyway, so I can’t tell if you’re a supporter of his or not.
Either way, your comment is the typical egotistical, arrogant and ignorant comment made again and again by horde. If you have not tried it on Alliance side, don’t bother. You’re just making yourself sound like FOX and/or CNN.
1 Like
He was actually taking the ally side on this if you read who he was responding to…
If that was true your WSG / AB winrates would be better.
8 Likes
I haven’t stepped foot in WSG in classic and AB isn’t even out yet. If you are referring to retail then I laugh at the reference. Apples and oranges but good try going for the discredit tactic when arguing. Just proves your argument holds no merit. It’s a tactic used by those that can’t provide a proper counter argument. Azzure, on the other hand, actually provided a decent counter argument. Maybe next time you can actually try.
LMAO??
where we find this guy?
14 Likes