tbf it’s kinda funny that a hastily slapped together wooden gate did a better job keeping the heavily industrialized Alliance out of Mulgore than demigods did guarding Nelf lands against the Horde.
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Baine did not.
Did Baine do this? I didn’t do Theramore.
I don’t remember this ever happening. The last thing I knew of Baine, Sylvanas had told him that she intended to keep murdering Azeroth and sent him to the sword wound.
Yes, he did. Baine and Vol’jin were the ones in charge of attacking Theramore.
His letter to Jaina was literally a “Get the hell out, you have no chance” courtesy for her help in the Grimtotem Rebellion … but he never even attempted to stop the attack. And he led his people from the front in that Horde Meatgrinder Garrosh turned it into. He was not opposed to the destruction of Theramore. He was opposed to the slaughter of innocents and feared the Magma Golems Garrosh was using wouldn’t discriminate when they swept the city. Which they would have if they had attacked immediately after Northwatch. Rather than stalling out.
And yes, Baine also did canonically agree to go along with the WoT; which is why you see a surprising amount of Tauren Braves amongst the assault force. He believed in Saurfang’s plan and Saurfang himself enough to agree to it. He only turned against Sylvanas once it was clear she was willing to discard every value important to every Horde race for what amounted to a truly desperate appearing escalation tactic.
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I guess when Garrosh will kill you, you’re motivated to do things you would never do as proven when he groveled and forgave the Alliance before Garrosh turned his attention to Taurajo and Theramore.
You … really have not read any of the external reading material that includes Baine around that period have you. It does give a lot of insight into both his actions, as well as the instability between the Horde and the Tauren around that time. The BEs weren’t the only ones who threatened to leave the Faction due to Garrosh’s actions. Frankly speaking, the only reason the Tauren are even in the Horde at all anymore is because of Baine. Even Hamuul was telling him that he wasn’t bound by his father’s blood oath to Thrall.
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A kneejerk writing reaction to try to get Horde players to like the Alliance sympathizing leader.
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Yeah … Baine was almost non existent in this game up until BfA, and all of the things you hate him for are consequences of events that happened in those books. So, there is little point in talking about this character with you if you’re just going to disregard all of that. You started with the conclusion “You Hate Baine” … and because nothing else matters, it does not matter what arguments I throw back at you. The conclusion you’ve made can’t be wrong so you’ll continue to use hyperbole and move goalposts to keep it that way. Its a garbage way to take a stance frankly.
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Yes. He is a plot tool to aid the alliance. We’ve gone over this. I stated he did not rebuke the Alliance for Taurajo or the invasion of the Barrens. Your only example of this not being true is when Garrosh “YOU WILL SERVE THE HORDE OR BE CRUSHED BENEATH IT” Hellscream called the Horde to attack the Alliance.
tl;dr: Baine didn’t do it of his own cognizance and refused to do anything harmful in any way, shape, or form until Garrosh quite literally forced him to.
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And tried very hard to minimize the damage to the Alliance.
Which I’m not against, because destroying an extremely hostile enemy port without endangering civilian life is about as good of an outcome you could have expected as a horde player. Just a shame that he never helps the Horde in the same manner.
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Agreedo. 
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Yeah being forcibly compelled to attack an enemy, over willingly attacking an enemy are two different things. And because garrosh knew that Baine would try to warn Jaina, it played exactly into garrosh plan. Also I don’t remember Baine agreeing with the war of thorns at all, and was instead kept out of the loop and told to go help heal Sylithis.
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Also Baine unlike his father never tried to stop something clearly wrong happening, Cairne was awesome and even challenged Garrosh to Mok’gora because he knew that garrosh was being a bad boy and needed to be stopped, but what did Baine do to stop Syl? A whole lot of nothing besides freeing Derrick then going back to mulgore to await his capture, Baine could’ve challenged syl at any point during the fourth war but he never did.
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I actually felt neutral-to-positive about Baine until everyone started inexplicably shilling for him in BfA. Now I dislike the sight of him and had a hearty snicker when the Jailer deemed him “unworthy.”
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I’m the only Baine hater who didn’t have a problem with him saving Derek. That was the one and only example of his Alliance partisanship that didn’t bug me, because free will is supposed to be the cornerstone of the Horde.
I’m kind of mad no one else cared, though.
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I was all for saving Derrick cause one it screws over Syls plans slightly and two it was the right thing to do, cause she went against the forsaken reverence of free will when trying to make Derrick into a sleeper agent.
We all know her free will shtick was just propaganda.
If Baine has had positive relations with the Alliance it is because the Alliance has probably done as much for Baine as the Horde.
Let’s start with the fact both Anduin and Jaina helped Baine instead of going straight to Varian with the information. Hell, if they had done that Varian might have forced Baine to leave the Horde or making sure his attempt at retaking Thunderbluff failed.
Then after Jaina/Thrall rescued him we get the whole scene about Jaina potentially getting the Alliance to defend Thunderbluff if Sylvanas attacked.
Lastly, it has always been the Tauren nature to avoid confrontation and only engage in it as a last resort. To the point the Taurens were willing to relocate there settlements instead of fighting centaurs.
Yeah, like that time when the Allaince helped push out the Alliance out of Tauren lands when the Alliance was murdering Tauren civillians…
…wait, no.
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Anyone who would want magatha back is no longer Horde. Cairne himself would rise from the grave to see you dead.
Why, exactly, do you think that? One is a king who lost his kingdom and son, another experienced trauma that made her resent the Horde and herself, and shaw is just a guy trying to serve his country, and hasn’t exactly done anything reprehensible while doing so, except fail a lot. Why do you think they should be villains? What did they do?
That has turned people into villains before. Fandral Staghelm lost his son, for example. Or, remember Zul’jin? Lost his lands and his eye.
Really, any trauma can be spun as “Yeah, what happened to you sucks, but this isn’t the way to deal with it.”
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Fair. But it’s everything else that happened afterwards that defines these characters. I’m not saying they couldn’t have become villains. I’m saying that the path they all took were quite different from that of villains.