You keep saying this like its true. /Looks at Hawthorne and all his men being killed in response to Taraujo, and using the Horde as a whole to do it to minimize Tauren causalities. What you have issues with is he admitted “it was a valid military target” … which it was. So was Theramore. So was Teld (at least within the confines of Saurfang’s WoT. Not so much Sylvie’s motives).
Still does not change the fact that people would prefer a woman who actually killed swaths of her own people, because she pretends to hate the Alliance for political gain and power.
I want to know why you think Baine had anything to do with that?
If firebombing a civillian population when everyone who could even remotely be considered a soldier is away is acceptable, then I want to see people stop whining about Teldrassil.
Oh no, he removed a small segment of people from Thunderbluff during a time of massive political instability. How shocking. They’re still safe behind the wall he built in Mulgore. And they probably are allowed to return by now. He should have removed the far larger population that wanted to outright just leave the Horde, because they rightly blamed their association with the Faction being the cause of a lot of their people’s hardships like Taraujo. Or are we going to constantly ignore that that was a major point of contention in the book that just proceeded Cata?
Did Baine rebuke the Alliance and support the execution of Hawthorne, or did he rebuke the Tauren who saw to justice by banning them from Thunderbluff?
Yeah … party politics are BS, and are often defaulted on by the intellectually lazy. Thanks but no thanks. Considering the political climate of the Tauren described in “As our Father’s Before Us”, I do not overly find issue with the methods Baine chose to respond to Taraujo. Defending the Tauren’s new Borders and relying on the very Horde he kept the Tauren in to deal out justice likely saved Tauren lives in the long run. I have many, MANY issues with Baine, but neither his response to that tragedy or the Derek situation are among them.
Seeing the world of warcraft in Blue and Red is what leads people to believing Magatha would be a better leader; because she pretends to hate the Alliance.
This isn’t about parties. You told me that I was wrong. You told me that Baine rebuked the Alliance via Hawthorne’s death. But Baine had nothing to do with Hawthorne’s death and punished the Tauren for seeing to it.
Where.
Do.
You.
Stand?
Did Baine rebuke the Alliance for murdering Tauren or not, Droite?
The Tauren didn’t have “lands” before the events of WC3, and the majority of their nomadic territories are actually to the South, North, and West. The Tauren themselves also had very limited Holdings in the Barrens outside of Taraujo. Its still a loss, but since every single Alliance race in the area outside the NEs have been since pushed out of those lands … its a faulty argument.
Being stationary is an absurdly new phenomena for the Kalimdor Tauren.
I don’t disagree, but the Barrens were a tiny fraction of that nomadic territory … and outside the Dwarves (who have since been ousted) no one was trying to take that territory away from them. It also doesn’t change what I said. Baine relying on the Horde as a whole (the Faction he kept his people a part of) to deal with an ENTIRE other Faction’s aggression likely saved Tauren lives.
The reason the Horde exists is generally for national defense is it not? So him having the Horde do the functional thing that most races who’ve joined expect from it … is a bad thing? Rather than him lashing out with just the Tauren in response to Taraujo against the entire EK Alliance war effort in Kalimdor? Which was what Hawthorne and Northwatch were operating under.
He validated that Taurajo was a valid military target, nothing more … nothing less. Which was the truth. He didn’t condone those actions. He then built the Great Gate of Mulgore directly in response to that tragedy, and kept his people in the Horde (a Faction that exiss primarily for joint nation defense) … which led to justice for Taurajo. Which is what the Horde is for btw.
So … what people are really mad at him for is not blindly lashing out against the entire EK Alliance War Effort in Kalimdor with JUST the Tauren. To satisfty the calls for vengeance by a relatively very small percentage of the population, who could not get their personal revenge without it coming at the cost of lives of their countrymen. I do NOT take issue with Baine’s response to Taurajo.
as far as I acknowledge it , magatha did what she did for the sake of the taurens as a all because she wanted them to be strong and more self dependent
magatha didnt do anything for personal gain , she has honor and a honorable goal , if she didnt the elements would have done with her what they did with thrall and would have abandonned her , but instead she is one of the stronger shaman on azeroth
Wow … you are stretching like hell. Magatha has never been anything other than a person who uses the guise of “For my people” to justify her thirst for personal power and gain. She’s essentially the Tauren equivelant of Sylvie, putting on a populist face to obscure her selfish ambitions. Nothing she did with the murder of Cairne to the slaughter she encouraged with the Grimtotem Rebellion was “For the Tauren”. It was “For Her” and always her.
Which is why you see Grimtotem siding with the Alliance after their exile; as well as Grimtotem loyalists siding against her with Baine.
I hate Baine as much as the next guy, but this is the worst. Magatha did do it for personal power. The Grimtotems were always dicks. Her bit in Legion is one of the more egregious things the writers have done the past few xpacs. Cairne was a saint.
This. Magatha doesn’t feel an ounce of guilt for anything she’s ever done, so no such mental Block. Frankly, as long as you’re not betraying them directly or trying to enslave them … the elements really do not care about morality. Which is why Goblins and even Vulpera are able to make literal contracts with them. Beyond the spiritual, there is the option on the bargaining table too.
No, but participating in the Horde war effort in the Barrens and leading the attack on Theramore from the front lines. Baine even agreed with the WoT once Saurfang presented it to him. And sent forces to support it. So, in the end, what you are really mad about is that he “said the thing”, and then didn’t proceed to lead his people into a suicidal charge for a minorities thirst for vengeance they couldn’t claim themselves.