I don't hate Calia. In fact. She's not bad at all

Lore Story Forum
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This sort of feels like when the blood elves first introduced into the Horde. Another case of Blizzard’s subversion established norms. The Night Elves gives the impression of a darker theme with the Night Warrior. While the Forsaken are getting a lighter theme with a lightforged undead Calia. Thematically both blood elves and Calia clash with the Horde initially. But the blood elves proven themselves. Perhaps in the future Calia will too. But for her case she is definitely not there yet.

As much to the ire of many perhaps Blizzard wants to move the Forsaken away from those dark themes. Lordaeron was the shining beacon of virtue the spiritual center of humanity before the plague. Yes they were far from perfect. But bringing back more lawful individuals like Calia and perhaps by extension Alonsus Faol is Blizzard attempting to have the Forsaken revisit and rediscover their once noble heritage. Is that not what the orcs were doing as well? Revisiting their noble-savage shamanistic roots from demonic corruption?

Only time will tell if Blizzard will subvert all that for another time and make the Horde into a killing machine again.

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If we’re expanding it to that, a fair number of Forsaken raised from Cata onwards still don’t meet that criteria.

But more importantly, I think that wanting specific mental trauma as a prerequisite for leadership is pure lunacy. And the idea that it has to be so to understand your people is akin to saying you must be a drunk to know what alcohol does to you brain.

Wasn’t the whole moral of Tess Greymane’s dream quest that she didn’t need to be Worgen to lead the Gilneans? That her people were more than their curse? Is all the Forsaken is is their curse by contrast?

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To my knowledge, that quest is universally condemned by Worgen fans, as the result of the quest implies that Tess realizes that she doesn’t want to continue the Worgen.

The equivalent of a living Calia stepping into Forsaken leadership and saying: “I can’t wait until all these poor zombies are dead again so the Forsaken can be made up of living humans.”

Some one correct me if I’m wrong, but the quest enraged the SF when it first appeared.

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Worgen are gilneans first remember the worgen curse is a one generation thing as the curse doesn’t pass to children

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…Implying that people seriously thought the Greymane family were going to spread a lycanthropy curse that consumes people with rage to more of their population for nothing else other than maintaining their Worgen count?

Edit: How Sylvanasian of them.

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100% the people who hate that quest cause she didn’t turn into a worgen literally don’t understand the worgen story

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I mean, I’d understand if Tess said outright “time for the Worgen to end”, but she doesn’t indicate any intent or notion to speed it along.

And it’s not like they’re saying no worgen ever after this point, I’d imagine they’d keep the transformation for a rainy day…

As Zelling shows there are people who will take up undeath willingly, there will be people who willingly taken up being a Worgen. That will depend probably on them having a dad like Greymane or not.

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The issue I think people take, is while it might be a great line of thought for a story, no one likes being told they shouldn’t exist.

That’s a fundamental part of storytelling, to challenge such notions, and to earn respect or remind those who make such statements that we do in fact deserve to exist.

Hell, every single time in Warcraft that we fight some Titan Construct in a dungeon, their lines are always some variant of:

“YOU ARE IMPERFECT, A MISTAKE, A SMUDGED INK STAIN ON THE BLUEPRINT OF PARADISE.”

And we always bash them and their opinion of our worth down. All the higher powers thank the player for existing once they’ve been shown the value we bring to existence. They are indebted to us.

That emphasis is clear in most questing content, until recently and in the examples noted by this thread.

After all this time of building everyone up, these quests and notions are sneaking in to the story that Worgen and Forsaken, as the setting’s “Cursed” races, should go quietly into that dark night and the world would be better if they would just wander into the woods never to be seen again, and let “Normalcy” (Living humans, uncorrupted humans) retake the land they live on, and rebuild the ruins they occupy or consider their own.

While story-wise, yes, even Sylvanas claimed there was no joy in living in undeath and has successfully committed suicide, this was shown to us as to be a terrible decision, and that living with the curse had more merit than simply giving up and exiting the story.

For Tess and the Worgen, she experienced Worgenhood in a fever dream, wanting to become cursed like the rest of her people, a similar desire to Calia’s except she got to test-run the curse and didn’t have to make a commitment. And in the end… unlike Calia… she declined.

For me, I’m confused at the outcome. The curse has been overcome for all Gilneans, and they no longer become savage beasts, but simply transform when enraged or feel overwhelmed with a sense of violent justice. They don’t even burst out of their clothes when they do it, as her father looks dapper as heck no matter which form he’s in!

Ahem, the underlying issue I believe is that you can’t sow the seeds of pride in your team, and then later down the road imply that pride in your team is unwarranted or even wrong without getting the team’s fans upset. Even if you’re still able to join the team, no one wants to hear that there’s merit in the fact that the team… really doesn’t have to exist and no one would mind if it didn’t.

So with Tess, while she didn’t say, “None of my future subjects will take the curse.” she has basically created a split in her subjects, even as she awards them dapper clothes and a fancy title for helping her in her spiritual journey.

We’ll need to see Calia’s stance on raising new Forsaken. Does she allow the process when she finally rules them? Does she think it’s better that they don’t propagate, and just quietly die off one by one until they are no more? That opinion certainly still exists in Alliance circles. Just because she chose to become undead to better connect with and understand her people, doesn’t also imply she’s happy to keep granting undeath to others after her in some sort of perpetual therapy session, creating monsters just to keep herself employed to continue comforting those same monsters she’s creating…

Just some thoughts.

And now I need to get back to work.

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Worgen arent worgen, they are gileans, it was always about gilean pride, they been worgen for 5 years, a people isnt gonna throw away history for 5 years of being a wolf man that they didnt want to be in the first place. Worgen shouldn’t exist cause the worgen isnt a part of who they are, its so crazy that worgen dont understand that, WORGEN WHERENT BORN AS WORGEN.

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In our modern day and age, I wouldn’t agree with this notion.

At all.

Just because you weren’t born a certain way, does not mean there is no value to living a different way.

That’s all I will say.

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lol dude, these people where forced to become worgen it wasnt a choice its a curse, that is what the quest was about, a father telling his daughter that she is 100% wrong about a curse she never was forced to live with like he was.

its funny you are all like this when you play undead, a race that was literally forced to do horrible things by arthas, a race who’s curse is often compared to a allegory to sexual assault, undead had all sense of self and power taken from them. But then again you where a sylvanas fan.

its like people forgot why forsaken are called forsaken, and no it doesnt have to do with sylvanas

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The Blood Elves still don’t work in the Horde.

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I think that’s the most interesting and original bit of forsaken. it’s really what sets them apart from a proper evil faction in an MMO like WAR or any other.

I’m not saying trauma = good, I’m saying there’s a lot of interesting potential in the stories of people who were eating their loved ones and now have to function in a normal high fantasy society.

Instead of blizzard only using it for jokes like “THESE AREN’T MY HANDS”.

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The best way for this angle to have worked was to make the Forsaken Alliance. That would have been really interesting but alas

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Also, the importance of sylvanas being that brand of undead meant she could sympathize with them, as much as someone like that would. probably not much

but that’s a far cry from someone who was raised by the light and never went through the orgin of the forsaken, unless it’s simply dying and coming back.

Maybe with the capital gone we can move away from “former citizens” of X and just anyone who has died and came back but that doesn’t grab me nearly as much.

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they ate people like 20 years ago in the lore now, its basically backstory

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This design is superior to what was given to us. And while I still wouldn’t like the idea of menethil returning at least she would truly feel like part of the forsaken community.

Pity, a real pity.

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Nezmith, respect to your essay, its well put.

But it fundamentally misunderstands the Worgen curse in several aspects.

The Worgen curse in its unconstrained form is essentially a second personality. A personality that drowns its host in rage, makes the bearer the epitome of savagery. Blinds them to sense and reason, makes friend foe. “But it’s alright now, because they’re better and…”

It’s not alright. That rage isn’t gone. It’s just been buried, and only partially.

Genn Greymane says: You know not what you ask. To be forever torn between rage and reason. To fear for your loved ones whenever they are near.

The Ritual of Balance which tempers their rage is not a cure. It is medicine. And, according to the novel Wolfheart, the treatment doesn’t always work. So there is a chance that Tess in taking the curse might need to be put down if the Ritual fails. And best case scenario, even if she makes the hurdle, shes still got the spirit of an animal raging inside her for the rest of her life.

Being a Worgen isn’t like picking up a new lifestyle. It’s like being afflicted with a mental health condition that takes away some control of your faculties, will cause you to kill your friends and family. And even if you get a treatment, its never just gone. Worst case scenario, you still risk harming loved ones, or lash out at small offenses.

There are many things to have pride for. Race, gender (or nonconformation thereof), sexual orientation, maybe even nationality in healthy doses. But no one has pride for mental conditions that rob them of control.

To draw a distinction with the Forsaken, first of all the only loss of control really associated with undeath is from the Scourge enslavement or the temporary resurrection frenzy that we’ve seen from Cataclysm-onwards in new recruits. So someone who becomes a free-willed undead has no such inner beast to wrestle with. They have issues aplenty beside that, including trauma that changes their personality (sometimes to evil).

The Forsaken identity isn’t solely built on that suffering. It’s not even exclusively built on undeath, as non-undead members, although seldom, do exist (namely leper-gnomes). But more than that, pride in that Forsaken identity as a concept isn’t something that exists on its own. Sylvanas was instrumental in cultivating it, giving the Forsaken purpose, an identity, and a place to exist. A rejection of exterior forces demanding their destruction, and an attempt to reclaim and rebuild. (All of which being good on paper, admittedly in practice the Forsaken sure did a lot of demanding destruction of their own neighbors.)

To my knowledge, hardly any Gilnean allied Worgen prop up pride in being a Worgen. Genn Greymane, the faction leader, doesn’t say “For the Worgen!” He says “For Gilneas!” Always. Greymane’s development in dealing with his Worgenhood is along the lines of revealing himself to his countrymen and rekindling his bond with divided Gilneans through a shared plight, but its always the underlying Gilnean heritage which is the focus.

Worgen pride doesn’t seem to exist as a concept in the story. If it does exist, it exists as a concept in players outside the story. And I feel that is potentially mis-attributation on their part. Or a fundamental breakdown in the lore. Sure, given the circumstances of the Ritual of Balance addressing the extreme issues, player characters can probably express Worgen pride, and it might exist in lore in some capacity, but its not mainstream by any canonical appearance that I can note.

Now people who say “you shouldn’t exist” to Worgen have their own problem. That’s akin to saying “You should die” to someone who suffers from clinical-depression-induced mood-swings. And anyone who does that is a scumbag. But do you think that someone who suffers from depression is going to have pride in their condition? It sucks, and they know it sucks.

Tess Greymane got a taste of the curse, and opted to pass on it. She got what she wanted out of it, insight into her people, the curse they faced. Becoming a Worgen at that point would’ve served no purpose, as she already had her people’s respect. Calia’s decision to undergo rebirth into undeath is probably fueled by the rejection at the Gathering, and realizing that she has a long way to go yet.

From a character investment perspective, I understand the concern of your race being “deleted” over time, but putting aside that I again have to question the implication that people assumed that Tess Greymane is going to let the “Worgen” die out. Again, did they assume that the Greymanes was going to propagate a lycanthropy curse with the potential to kill its afflicted? Host blood drinking coming of age parties? Have a “Become a Worgen” lottery? The fact that “let the race die” is considered a concern communicates to me some real glossing over of what the Worgen actually entail.

Now if you’ll excuse me… I am famished, and need some food.

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Horde is just a vassal state of the Alliance now. Keep in mind that the Horde lost all wars against the Alliance.

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really well said, someone that finally has a really good grasp of the story