-<Incoming wall of text. You have been hit by 502 points of damage>-
When I join a dungeon or a raid group, I follow the inherit social rules. Need if it’s an upgrade, Greed if I need money, Pass if I don’t want it and Trans mog if I want the look. Now your time is as important as mine, but I have always followed those rules even though I know Need takes precedence over all the other rolls, guaranteeing people will potentially sell it or trans mog it instead of actually needing it by clicking the appropriate button.
I join content not for the pixels, but for the adventure. Something that has been lost in time as new generation of gamers have come on online. I don’t know you, but I will help you because that is the type of gamer I am. An upgrade for me just means my life becomes a little easier when I am adventuring. It also means that someday maybe I am in your guild because there was a certain gearing requirement.
Yes, trans mog is forever and gear is temporary, but guess what. Trans mog is temporary as well as you’re just going to jump back on the hamster wheel next season to get the newest color schemes of gear.
If Blizzard was serious about fixing this issue, they would add Alchemist dyes that would allow us to tint armor to our own choosing of color. They could separate the Need and Trans mog rolls so the person that truly needs the gear gets that and the person wanting a trans mog gets an appearance only version.
But seriously stop feeling entitled. Learn to enjoy the adventure as you never know when it’s about to end. Goodluck and may whatever loot gods you pray to may they favor your next roll.
still needs to be listed because blizzard could have disabled the need button more aggressively if they wanted, the whole thing about lower ilvl upgrades really only applies to a tiny sample of very specific raid drops for which individual exceptions could be made.
They didn’t though, their restrictions are extremely minimal, because they don’t want to deal with the backlash of losing LFR participation from mog hunters. So it doesn’t matter if you feel you are accounting for it because you are only considering it as a function of numerical upgrades.
#2 is very relevant, as it challenges the statement that Blizzard never intended for heroic raiders to continue stepping into LFR after they have outgrown that content numerically.
it isn’t once you come to realize that the dice is the only correct thing to be worried about, and mad at, when you lose a particular piece of gear. You’ll always be rolling against roughly the same number of people, no matter what set of rules you choose to operate under.
i always liked personal loot and they need to bring it back for raiding. i don’t care about how need before greed makes people “feel better” because they see loot drop, most the time it’s not for you anyway.
it has already been explained several times in this very thread why that isn’t actually a good fix as it makes it even worse for the people complaining.
I for one am totally fine with either system but this one is better.
Is anyone arguing against this being a solution? It’s just until a solution is implemented, expecting higher geared players to simply volunteer their time to gear everyone else in LFR is foolish at best and entitled at worst.
I agree with your overall point, but why does rolling need on an item you functionally cannot win with any other selection make you a jerk? Are geared players who care about transmog supposed to run LFR every week on the hope they find the rare time when the mog button actually gives them a chance at the item? Are they supposed to just wait the 3+ year minimum until the content is soloable for them to have a chance at that mog? Basically anyone who has the audacity to want a chance at a mog when the content is current and players are actually running it is a jerk?
Loot has historically only had 2 purposes, to be worn or sold. Blizzard has added mogs and the ability to trade bound items since the first time “need before greed” existed as a loot system in WoW. I have not seen any clarification on the term “need” from Blizzard since these changes, and they are the only ones who have authority to define what the terms should mean for LFR where no players have control.
I mean this solution seems so obvious to me it practically smacks you in the face. Make the transmog button only roll for the appearance against others who hit transmog. Geared players likely have improved chances at appearances in LFR, players with raid items at higher difficulties could be allowed to roll on these appearances, and players who need LFR gear for upgrades are only competing with others who need the gear for that purpose.
transmogs. if you don’t allow people to roll on for moggs when they have higher level gear, they will simply create alts and run those alts through LFR (like they did at the start of the patch). and only solution I can think of us once you have an item you get the color variations of all its lower quality versions as well, but blizz will never do that as it drastically cuts in player activity metric
Yeah, I mean if I bring a poorly-geared and rarely-played alt in to shoot for transmogs in order to not offend anyone by bringing in a much better geared player, what’s the difference? That character gets the loot, then I just don’t log in with them again, so it’s now “wasted” anyway.
The reason I say this is that the intent of the Need roll is to get a gear upgrade, not use it for transmog. So people are going to think those that abuse this are jerks. It’s as simple as “you’re not following the guidelines that were imposed upon the group”.
Is the current system unfair to moggers and ripe for abuse? Absolutely. It’s a bad system. But Need was designed for upgrades, because if Need was intended for Transmog, a paladin would be able to roll Need on an agility polearm.
Again, none of this matters to anyone except that people might think you’re a jerk. Or they may make the 300th thread that day on the forums about this topic.
This is from 6 few months ago:
So, if an item is considered an “upgrade”, the Need roll should appear (assuming they don’t already own it or a higher ilevel version of the same item). So, if anything that could be transmogged is considered worthy of a “Need” roll, it should ALWAYS be lit up (again, unless the person already owns this item at the same or higher ilevel).
The example above (Pally and Agi polearm) disproves this. If there is another example of an item that is NOT a combat upgrade for a character (stats-wise, in the absence of any item at all) that they can roll Need on, then that would be evidence of inconsistency, but I do not know of one.
Now, it’s been pointed out that this could’ve been an oversight, and that’s possible. But again, the only “downside” is that people might think said person is a jerk. That’s it.
At the risk of sounding pedantic (this is genuinely not my intent), Blizzard themselves used weaselly wording here that leaves room for interpretation. They don’t define the subject that is considering whether a piece is an upgrade. To a completionist, getting another piece toward finishing a mog probably is an upgrade. Yes, that’s not how I would define upgrade, but there is nothing in that CS post or any official definition of the term upgrade I could find that would allow me to definitively challenge such an interpretation.
Again, I don’t want to be pedantic here. But so long as any room for interpretation exists, absent Blizzard issuing further guidance, trying to say one definition should apply more than another is going to require treating on player’s opinion as more important than another’s.
Yea, I’m definitely giving Blizz the benefit of the doubt here with the rules in that I’m assuming they are consistent with their definitions. If we’re trying to determine the “truth value” of a statement, though, we need to look at cases that disprove the statement.
If a transmog is considered an upgrade, I should be able to roll Need on anything I can 1) equip, 2) do not own at the same or higher ilevel, and 3) is considered an “upgrade” (according to Blizz). This is not the case for the situation I described (pally and agi polearm). Hence, the conditional statement is false, and the part that is false is that Blizzard does not consider it an upgrade.
I’m not saying that a mog, to an interested person, isn’t an “upgrade” to them.
I’m saying that a mog, to Blizzard’s definition of GL loot rolls, is not considered an “upgrade” to Blizzard.
And no need to worry about sounding pedantic, I know you argue in good faith.
I’ll take GL over PL any day of the week. That said, they need to change how GL works or people need to feel less entitled. If someone comes to the raid with the soul intention of greed or trans mog, they need to select those options and not need. For trans mog make it a separate roll and the winner of that roll gets an appearance only reward while need person gets the upgrade they so desperately need.
The very few times I have seen and gotten PL; I am like great some piece of garbage I can’t use. So instead of someone that can actually use it and needs it, it sits in my bag’s waiting for the vender the next time I am in town.
100% agree. These are the social guidelines. Need if it’s an upgrade, greed if you plan to sell it, pass if you don’t want it and trans mog if you want it for appearance. If it wasn’t for the trans mog option or better implantation of the trans mog roll most of the problems would be solved except the people that roll need to make money off another player.
The same guidelines we follow mostly in real life, these actions have consequences. In game those actions use to have consequences until we lost the sense of community when they allowed cross-server game play. Players use to police themselves and had pride in their community’s and if you got know for shady actions you found yourself out of a guild, never invited to any more content.
100% agree. Even if Blizzard left the current system in place and stated the intent of the system, I don’t think people would change. It’s going to half to be a backend change when it comes to loot distribution. Either make need and trans mog separate rolls so one gets the upgrade, and one gets the appearance only version.
Only a Sith deals in absolutes. (Yes yes the irony)
Blizz included the restrictions to further help people who need to use loot, that’s not a clear indication of anything other than they think usability also matters to some degree. If rolling rules were the only definition of need priority, it’s obvious that mog can be treated as a need based on eligibility to hit the button.
Not necessarily. It only shows that Blizzard has determined that the item is an upgrade. We have to separate out the “combat upgrade” from the “moggability” (is that a word?) because with most things, they are intermingled. But with an item that provides no main stat for a spec, this option is not available.
So an upgrade is (apparently, according to Blizzard’s rules) something that has a main stat on it that matches the loot spec’s main stat, in the case where any main stat is present.
Again, I’m not saying it’s not a personal upgrade. I’m not saying this has no basis in common sense that people are going to want mogs. I’m only saying that, if we are going by the guidelines that Blizzard created, and that (some) people are expecting others to follow, it can be considered jerk-like behavior to go against this.
It’s not lost on me that if it takes this much analysis, interpretation, inference, etc. that it’s obviously not a clear set of rules lol.