Ye you right for sure in the big picture of things. My ret/warr brain just was fixated on individual specs in a vacuum
1 Like
NGL I definitely miss the days when first aid was the only way pure dps classes could heal.
2 Likes
Not just hybrid. Even pure dps classes are a bit over tuned in some categories.
My top 10 list of things that need to be nerfed/changed.
- War mobility nerfed. For a class that has really good consistent dmg, utility, and a large absorb shield with ignore, there needs to be a larger skill cap + thought processing when using gap closures.
- Feral/sp/enhance/ret healing nerfed (enhance receiving a mana buff on their heals which seems reasonable)
- Frenzied regen made into a 1.5 min cd.
- Nerf instant heals for healers and make casted heals a lot stronger and worthwhile using.
- Nerf triune or make the shields dispellable altogether with 1 purge.
- Buff hpal and disc mana regen.
- Necro fleshcraft nerfed to where it offers only a 15% max hp shield.
- Craven Strategem removed OR changed to where feign death allows the hunter to be immune to slows for the next 5 seconds.
- Death sentence removed for arms OR changed to where execute deals greater dmg.
- Chain harvest dmg nerfed for enhance and replace stormflurry with echo of the elements (giving enhance 2 charges of stormstrike and lava lash).
Would not fit well in the current game at all due to state of meta and outrageous overkitting of cast stops on a lot of classes. Definitely some good ideas elsewhere in that list though.
2 Likes
- Delete free reset conduit
Didn’t mean that instants should be drastically nerfed. But moderate nerfs to them and buffs to casted heals would really steer the game in a better and more rewarding direction imo. I just despise the magnitude of instants right now because it makes the nature of healing more forgiving.
Actually wouldn’t mind adding that too. With borrowed power DoTs and random extra needless substance added, I’d love the conduit to exist but nerfed in a way that stealth breaks from DoTs immediately after 2 seconds.
ran into a ret pally last night in a BG, i tried to gank him a few times but he legit felt impossible for me to kill.
at the end of the game i noticed this ret pally did 1 million heals total, wow thats quite a bit for a dps spec
checked details to see his maximum WoG was 27k!
now of course he needed wings and low hp to reach this number, but still… oof… im not even sure if a real actual healer can press a button that instantly does 27k heals.
Radiance
NS regrowth
Serenity
Hpalla divine favor with wings
1 Like
Pretty much. It’s also why tanks and healers do as much damage as dps. The odd part is why they just don’t introduce more kill/heal mechanics like victory rush. Likewise, they should do the same for mana regen as well.
That said, the design mentality has still been an ever increasing arms race. Instead of balancing they just keep giving each spec more and more and more. Did rogues really need another form of CC with shadowy duel? Do warriors really need to have near 100% uptime? Just bad design on top of bad philosophy.
Can’t talk about ‘forgiving’ onesidedly like this in favor of DPS over heals (seems to be a popular trend lately); game is incredibly forgiving to DPS right now, much moreso than it is for healers. This particular proposal would be more acceptable if juking was as meaningful and feasible as it once was where hardcasts were meaningful as you describe. The same argument doesn’t stand to reason when there are virtually endless fallback stops to back up missed kicks.
I’d be down for hardcast merits being reintroduced for specs that have historically leaned on them, but that’s not realistic unless oppression kits are gutted considerably in proportion across the board, which is unlikely to say the least.
For reference, I’m not sure how familiar you are with the term ‘Train The Blue’ but it used to be a meme for running down a resto shaman because they relied heavily on hardcasting and there was enough stops in comps that used this strategy to deny those casts indefinitely; it was incredibly degenerate gameplay and I’d rather not see low-quality gameplay like that again, especially since there’s even more oppression in most kits now than there was in those days (especially pertaining to melee on healer).
Moreover, with how bursty the current meta is, hardcasts are even more impractical because there’s times players are going 100-dead in less than the cast time of a healing surge/flash of light/regrowth/flash heal/etc.
I’m not saying there’s no circumstances under which your proposal would be a good one, but I definitely can’t see it being reasonable until the state of the game goes a major PvP gameplay redesign; specifically one that would be pretty much a complete 180 from the road they’ve been paving for the past couple years and thus is particularly unlikely.
Nonetheless, again, I liked quite a few of your suggestions… This just wasn’t one of them.
This would be an incredibly simple and effective way for them to reconcile what Trash mentioned without ruining PVP; kinda blows my mind that they haven’t leaned into this.
Another very good point.
The reason for that was because they had the strength of being anticaster, and being amazing at avoiding crowd control.
It makes sense they had it as a weakness, as the shaman team your goal was to peel for your healer vs those comps. It’s more reasonable to have a tradeoff exist as a weakness while your strengths are much more emphasized.
Now while rshams are much better surviving, they’re also now weaker and more vulnerable to crowd control, and not as good at preserving their team mates
By eliminating a weakness you force strengths to be diminished, making the gameplay for each class more dull.
1 Like
Exactly right - so there’s been a tradeoff over time to steer away from what I described there. To be perfectly clear, I’m not asking that rshams be buffed (I was actually only mentioning them as a case study to illustrate the larger point); I’m just saying that it’s not appropriate to regress to that (emphasis on hardcasting) design until the state of the game changes such that hardcasts become more contextually appropriate.
Exactly. It’s why I miss rock/papper/scissors in arena. It feels like very few specs have a solid niche now. Too many specs are self contained. As in, they aren’t reliant on their team to make something happen. Like warriors in the past needing freedoms from a pali to maintain uptime. Not that it isn’t still useful at times, but now we have such excessive overkill.
The game used to have a nice venn diagram logic.
Control
Damage
Survivability
You got to pick 2. That same thinking then applied to damage. High burst meant Low sustained and vice versa. Now it feels like most specs, even heals and tanks have some high burst setup. Like my healer getting hit for an 18.4k hammer from a bubbled venthyr holy palidan last night. Such a strange thing to see. A slow train wreck.
This stuff just all seems so fundamental. =/
3 Likes
They weren’t even hardcasting much then plus there were far more stops back then, dnno how people think there are more now
They just straight up weren’t good at keeping themselves alive. By trying to homogenize they’ve become far weaker.
Then when you make classes good with this philosophy they become so broken because there isn’t any downside to them whatsoever.
I agree with some of this. I dont agree with hybrid healing and your stance on intervene though.
Hybrid healing is supposed to balance out the fact that hybrids were to have lower defensives. In no world should pure dps classes out heal hybrids. If you remove hybrid healing, remove healing from every other non hybrid healing class.
I like intervene. It gives warriors identity and utility. However, what makes people not like intervene is that their class and most classes, have had all THEIR unique utility removed or given to X class making them borderline irrelevant. Only if they do busted damage or healing are they taken in those instances.
Just my opinion.
Dude you hit the nail on the head. Unique utility doesnt exist anymore, and in the few instances it does, people cry for overpowered removal of the game. To add to your ven diagram for damage, it was broken up in multiple subsections as well. You had High burst with CDs, high burst outside of CDs.
This led to multiple win conditions which feels like it doesnt exist now. And its unfortunate.
1 Like
to clarify i meant current hybrid healing is too significant
not that it shouldn’t exist
yeah that’s the point
things like rogue and mage shouldn’t have so much passive healing/damage prevention
i like intervene conceptually for those reasons
i don’t like 30 second cd 6 second duration physical sacrifice
it’s too much it’s too strong and it’s too easy
you could bring back all the utility the games ever had and that would still be dumb
there’s a lot they could do to make intervene less oppressive/forgiving/frustrating
longer cd? shorter duration? reduce the damage % prevented?
a little off topic controversial take here while we’re talking about intervenes CD
i think blanket abilities like disarm being shorter than 90 seconds makes them far too forgiving
because we’re forced completely into cooldown trading having something like disarm for every single 1 minute window means you literally cant do it wrong
and if you find a way to do it wrong there’s something really seriously wrong with you
assuming you’re passive aggressively talking about intervene complaints this is a really dumb post
intervene as an ability is cool
but if you think current intervene is healthy you’re fried out of ur mind
1 Like
Unfortunately in todays game, hybrids like shamans dont have DCDs and rely on strong healing to survive. While other pure dps specs get both.
See my first part of this post, its related. Rogues, mages, locks, DHs, warriors, etc should have NO HEALING, at all, if you want to significantly reduce those without DCDs hybrid healing strength. It boils down to bad class design, which has been a problem for the past 3 xpacs. I will say though, SL is better than the previous two.
a redesign for intervene sure, extend the cd or lower the duration. I can see that. However your previous post did not make that clear, and I interpreted it as a removal. Something that other posts, by other players, have called for.
My post in which this was a response to wasnt a slight or directed at you in any way. However, if the shoe fits, then feel free to wear it. This is directed at you.
not necessarily true
while we would benefit a ton from ethereal being replaced by a talentable shamanistic rage i don’t think you can say we specifically need 25k healing surges
well yeah obviously
ret should have pala wall back
enhance should have a talentable shamanistic rage in place of ethereal
ferals should get good
i think it goes without saying though that anybody and everybody would rather see stuff like that come back over raw hps
yeah i’ll give you that
i didn’t interpret it as directed at me
i interpreted it as a bad post defending intervene from complaints under the guise that it was a cool unique and healthy utility ability and players just need to gitgud
i was offended that what was implied was stupid
not an attack on me
1 Like