Class Talent Adjustments?
Does this mean trying to get hybrid DPS to compete with DPS classes? We’ve tried that in retail and although it’s popular, is it classic?
If you look at the damage classes, such as the mage, in molten core they use one spec(frost) then change to fire when resistances allow it. As we get more gear (usually crit) different specs open up, warlocks from affliction → destro ,or with rogues combat becomes more viable with more hit rating. Etc, etc.
Healers obviously didn’t get anything like this, but what if they kept the hybrid tax in newer classic+ content? Instead of trying to make feral cat dps viable or the bear tank viable, they instead added a healing rotation based off of power shifting? Elemental Shaman that shock health into their teammates or an enhancement shaman or retribution paladin have a melee healing rotation.
Perhaps they would be more supportive and less firehose type of healing. Such as the shadowpriest giving mana, maybe even something like ff14 with shield healers and pure healers.
Feels like retail kinda missed the boat with hybrids… being hybrids. But with 40 man raids it gives us more of an allowance to have more classes/spec that are more supportive.
Obviously it feels more like a healer tax than a hybrid tax, as fury warriors get to top DPS anyways. This seems to be what retailers use to justify every class needed to do top of the line DPS with DPS gear. Warriors being the main-tank with no classes really filling in the off-tank role except with maybe another warrior. Yes I realize that warriors couldn’t go protection to tank because of threat for the longest time.
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Anything that keeps Paladins in the dress will get my vote
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I’ll say the same thing I say every time hybrid tax comes up.
Every time hybrids do good dps/healing/tanking, they do so without giving up their utility, so they eventually overshadow other classes in their role. The ones that don’t have all the utility particularly so, ex: retail warrior. Very polarizing class, either desired because good dps, or not desired at all because it doesn’t bring anything except it’s damage. (currently Rallying cry is extremely bad, aoe dps potential limited due to low target caps which has been extra bad thanks to the huge pulls groups go for atm, the util we do bring is literally just the same as everyone elses)
And now I’ll say the thing I say every time people call warrior a hybrid in classic.
Warriors are only hybrids in the nerfed 1.12 game-state where bosses can be tanked while dual wielding, usually must be tanked while dual wielding due to threat, and the prot tree is totally dead. In a classic+ rework I would HOPE, they could bring the spec to life since after 17 points invested, your next 13 provide next to no value except getting you to shield slam. And ALSO make tank gear and prot spec actually required. Which would fix the hybrid complaints. Because then your dps warrior can’t become a replacement tank when your MT loses aggro or dies.
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if they use SoD as a base and continue how most classes and specs work that would be cool
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SoD was undercooked because they committed a development sin that should’ve been beaten out of them in whatever 101 course they took for certifications.
Idiots literally built an entirely new game version on top of a database already being used for three other active/maintained game versions.
I will not play a classic+ where they make that mistake again.
Either actually be able to cook and make changes to the game or leave it alone and make something else while people gnaw on a basic fresh.
I would be down for class adjustments but SoD taught me these guys will screw it up.
They only balance for PVE screwing over the PVP community.
Keep classic, classic. We want the game we love with more dungeons, raids, and BGs.
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fair i would hope they use a different engine or what ever they use when making classic+ so that it can very different from era with out breaking era
id say overall the class balance was decent some specs could have gotten more love(arms warrior)
runes where nice but i dont think they will go that route in classic+
i just dont want to see 40 man raids with 20+ warriors like in era
Agreed on the 20+ warriors. Nobody wants that.
The runes in general felt undercooked. Maybe that’s just cause I played warrior and our runes were really lame and made no difference to our actual gameplay loop.
I keep bringing it up, but I really thought runes would end up being stuff like this
https://db.ascension.gg/?spell=977700
THIS would’ve gone absolutely CRAZY for a build. It would’ve been an amazingly unique playstyle among classes. And instead we got uhh, stacking attack speed while dual wielding, or flat attack speed for having a 2h equipped, or rend now procs overpowers, or rend does more damage…
The biggest rotation change for warrior was literally JUST bloodsurge, cool, we can press slam now when we get a proc, it replaces a global we would’ve already filled with hamstring, so now that global does more damage… but we were already going to fill it. See my complaint?
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This issue isn’t class design it’s encounter design. As long as encounters are designed around players staying in one role virtually all the time then all the classes need to be relatively on par for those roles.
Trying to change class design without changing that fundamental encounter design style which has been the standard in WoW since day one would fail badly. For the same reason the hybrid tax failed in vanilla and why it went away.
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The hybrid tax and hybrid classes is a very misunderstood concept. Many people on this forum will try to argue that hybrids include warriors because they can tank and DPS.
Hybrid classes were intended to do all three roles at the same time, which would include paladin, shaman, and druid. This concept didn’t play out very well in the game’s initial release, and was almost entirely scrapped early on and we got more focused specializations that we know today as the talent trees were reworked throughout vanilla.
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So many of these issues are addressed by the TBC talent trees and tier set itemization that TBC used.
Yet there’s this constant attempt to make Level 60 WoW more like TBC but without just using TBC as the baseline.
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The people who complain the loudest do not like classic, they do not like tbc. They want retail where the specs are not only clearly defined and different but things are supposedly tuned within a %point of eachother.
TBC paladin for example does not have divine storm, it does not have aoe aside from consecration which is more for tanking utility. Ask the loud minority if they believe that paladin needs divine storm and they’ll tell you absolutely yes because ret is a dps spec and should have competitive aoe.
Of course you could then ask them if warrior should also have competitive aoe threat (thunder clap is garbage in its tbc iteration) so they can be competitive aoe tanks and they’ll say no because they do not like warriors and still carry that chip on their shoulder from 2019.
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Hybrid tax should be 1-5% worse than the non-hybrid performance
change my mind
Never was a fan of the hybrid tax approach. Punishing classes because they can serve the tank/healer role, which are mandatory for dungeon/raid groups, is silly to me.
Just make balanced classes/specs and let player ability sort it out.
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I cant change your mind but take this into consideration.
They “fixed” the hybrid issue in Cata.
Remember when they made so if your a fire mage you have no access to any frost spells? thats the cost of making everyone competitive for raiding. thats cool but thats not classic.
You cannot have the same damage as a pure while also having a butt ton of utility.
It breaks pvp. Just like in sod.
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Punish?
Being able to heal, go invincible, instantly remove a magic debuff with zero CD, among many other things is a huge boon. Would it be fair to say that Warriors and Rogues being unable to do these things is punishing to them?
One thing has been true since the very beginning of vanilla: People don’t like playing hybrid classes (in PVE) in a hybrid way.
In PVP they love it, but in PVE they statistically never play in a hybrid manner. And that was from the very start.
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I enjoy all the warriors.
It is good aesthetics to have many of the solider class. Far better than having multiple moonchickens + holy warriors + shadow priests all working together that feels clowny to me.
Imagine a platoon with a cat, some chickens, a few holy knights, a couple shadowpriests, half a dozen warlocks, some thieves, and only 2 warriors. Versus 20 well organized, standardized soldiers + their support.
I very much prefer the latter.
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people who play those archetypes want to be speshul but it ain’t so speshul when half your raid is heckin crusaders and oversized owls
the brownies being over represented makes sense since they’re the frontline fighter/knight/whatever class.
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Even more, those classes already do plenty of damage, they simply don’t do sustained single target dps.
So blizzard ends up buffing that, and in the process makes them too powerful for pvp and then plays whackamole with pvp balancing until they give up and add resiliance and other bad mechanics to try and tame the fact that hybrids are now doing tons of sustained damage + have their hybrid heals, movement, etc.
It is a bit wild to me that many wow players will argue that the class which can remove slows, self heal, wears plate armor, should also do similar dps as a warrior 
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