Hunter Visual Design: Consistent Miss

Demon Hunters can also use 1H Axes, 1H Swords and Fist Weapons, and transmog with them, so they have a LOT more options. DH vs Ranged Hunter is no contest in options…

BM/MM…
Bows: 304
Guns: 293
Crossbows: 162
Total: 759

SV…
Polearms: 374
Staves: 829
Total: 1203

DH…
1H Axes: 472
1H Swords: 701
Warglaives: 176
Fist Weapons: 250
Total: 1599

~ Numbers may not include hidden transmogs that don’t show up in Appearances until learned. ~

Survival has more staff options than BM/MM have options in total, and DH has more than double the options.

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that’s really exciting but the person I was replying to was directly comparing glaives with ranged weapons and how the “class specific weapons” (ranged weapons for bm/mm and glaives for dh) are seemingly more varied for dh than hunter, which isn’t the case

That’s nice, but I’m talking about the number of transmog options available for Warglaives vs Ranged Weapons. Since you can put a 1hander transmog on a Warglaive, it still counts as an option.

transmogging a warglaive into a sword is not a transmog option for a warglaive :skull: of course 1-h melee weapons are going to have more options than ranged weapons as 1-h weapons are used by Monks, Rogues, Shaman, Warriors, Death Knights, Demon Hunters—even Warlocks have 1-h options lol

You really are bent out of shape that a dedicated weapon type that only 2 specs in the entire game can use has less options than generic weapon types that half the classes use?

remember, people having a discussion with you isn’t trolling

Not sure what you’re saying here. Are you saying the game doesn’t allow it? Because it absolutely does.

There’s discussion, which you sometimes participate in. Then there is being contrary for the sake of being contrary, which you also do quite often. You also have a habit of making assumptions about someone’s comments and then arguing against your assumption. For example…

I’m not bent out of shape. Not angry. Not upset. Just pointing out the discrepancy exists, because you seemed to be arguing that Demon Hunters had fewer weapon transmog options than Hunters.

As for only 2 specs using ranged weapons, remember multiple classes used ranged weapons until I think MoP, and Demon Hunters have only existed since Legion.

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No? I am saying if you transmog a warglaive into a sword, it’s not a warglaive anymore…it’s a sword

I am not contrary? I just have a different opinion than you lol. I could call you contrary from that same line of thinking, which would be absolutely silly

This was pretty ironic :stuck_out_tongue:

Please go back and read my post two replies ago. a different person entirely brought up warglaives compared to ranged weps. I do not care about the quantity of glaives.

There was a thread where you argued that the Rogue rework didn’t happen because the person at Blizzard doing the work was out sick. You literally took an example of something Ion said could happen and presented it as evidence against other commenters…

How so? Because I asked for clarification on your unclear comment? See what I mean about making assumptions?

The comment I replied to did not have a previous comment quoted, so I took it as an individual comment and responded as such.

But, while we’re at it, you said in that comment there were 10 pages of crossbows and only 9.5 of warglaives. From what I can see, there are 176 warglaives and only 162 crossbows (artifact weapons included).

I don’t think you know what “being contrary” means. There’s no reason to think they’re lying about that. Again, just because someone disagrees with you and your conspiracy theories doesn’t mean they’re being contrary.

You literally made an assumption at what I was saying then got mad at me for “making assumptions”. Now you’re trying to save face by saying I was “unclear” so what you’re doing somehow doesn’t count as being hypocritical :+1:

Okay, so there’s 9.5 pages of crossbows and 17 pages of guns, and 17 pages of bow. so, the initial point stands :stuck_out_tongue:

Vast majority of hunters would love to dual wield regular weapon stat sticks again and love for SV to be able to dual wield glaives.

Oh yeah, it would be really cool to have double stat sticks, plus it would make our already huge HP pool even bigger

I don’t know if you’re dumb or confused. I said you were being contrary, not them. Ion used being sick as one of many possible reasons why a certain person might not be available to do work at a certain time, then you shared that as if the example is something that actually happened and why the Rogue rework was postponed. Something along the lines of “It didn’t happen because the person doing the work was out sick.” You were being contrary, because you lied about what was said in order to argue with someone and tell them they were wrong…

Do you know what a question mark is and what is means? Your grammar was poor. I couldn’t tell if you were claiming they couldn’t be transmogged or if you were saying it didn’t count. I literally asked for clarification, and gave a response based on what seemed to be the most likely meaning. I think you know this though and you’re just desperately trying not to be wrong.

And there are 39 pages of 1H Swords… but you want to limit the selection to only Warglaives, so let’s compare 1-to-1. If you only want a Warglaive transmog, then I only want a Crossbow transmog. Which of us has more option? You have more Warglaives, even though Warglaives have only been in the game since Legion and Crossbows have been in the game since launch.

In the end, this is a thread from Hunters giving feedback about armor and weapon visuals. Yet, here you are “disagreeing” with people’s opinions about lack of options. It is literally an opinion thread, full of subjective feedback, but you can’t help but be contrary.

  1. That’s not what being contrary means
  2. That’s not a lie
  3. That whole thread was a very obnoxious complaint about how a spec that Also needs attention is getting attention
  4. Please explain, in detail, what you think “contrary” means cause you’re not using it correctly at all

More irony coming from you. You’re moving the argument now so hard from your original post because your reply made no sense. So when you make assumption it’s “asking for clarifications” but when other people do it it’s just baseless trolling. I don’t think you’re interested in any sort of actual discussion.

When anyone disagrees with you, you call them contrarian or a troll.

I am not limiting anything. Once again, you’re not reading what people are saying. A different person brought up the comparison between Warglaives and ranged weapons. That was not me.

Warglaives were brought up because, like ranged weapons, only a single class can use them. That is why the comparison was made.

So opinions different than yours are contrary? Nice ego

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Contrary

  1. opposite in nature, direction, or meaning.

  2. perversely inclined to disagree or to do the opposite of what is expected or desired.

I think the “perversely inclined to disagree” really hits home here.

You respond in so many threads for the seeming express purpose of disagreeing with people. In many cases, you are telling them their subjective opinions are wrong. How many people need to point this out before you understand?

This is a lie, because you made a false statement. I’m sure you just misunderstood the context, but you didn’t say that. You kept right on arguing as if that were the case.

So, a thread of Hunters expressing their frustrations, yet you felt the need to comment and tell them they’re wrong for being frustrated because you thought it was obnoxious? See what I mean about contrary?

Contrary

  1. opposite in nature, direction, or meaning.

  2. perversely inclined to disagree or to do the opposite of what is expected or desired.

I think the “perversely inclined to disagree” really hits home here.

Only when they’re obviously doing so. Based on your response history, you seem to lack understanding of hyperbole and sarcasm.

And I expanded that comparison to better correlate with the argument you were trying to make.

A lot of people post on these forums that I disagree with, but they’re expressing their opinions. No need to start an argument with them. There are really only two people that have recently been spending a lot of time being argumentative over people’s opinions, and you are one of them. Hell, just scrolling through the forum, I found at least a dozen people calling you out for it.

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Please tell me, in detail, why you believe someone quoting an interview is “perversely disagreeing”. I’m looking forward to your repsonse.

Go ahead and please point out when I am telling someone their subjective opinion is wrong. The last time I disagreed with you was when you said the trading post weapon was a recolor, when you were operating under outdated and wrong information.

Again, disagreeing with you isn’t trolling. That’s just making sure you are up to date on information. Not sure why you take that so personally.

Did I make a false statement? Didn’t Ion say that sometimes life comes up?

Well, when people are wrong (you complaining about the gun being a recolor when that wasn’t the case) yes, I will make sure they’re aware of it. Or when people in this thread pretend the Hunter class trading post weapons is the only one that doesn’t match the set.

Again, people are just over exaggerating to complain. I like how you’re not calling that out or even acknowledging the context here, just so you can pretend to be superior to someone who disagrees with you.

Which was completely irrelevant to the discussion. :+1:

Oh really? A dozen people? Please let me know who, cause generally it’s the people who don’t approve of people who play SV.

One of my trades is concept art, and ever since I started playing this game in Wrath, have always designed class sets for fun. (Warning in advance, this is gonna be a bit lengthy, but if you’re in this thread you likely care enough to read it already)

Although concept art isn’t my main trade anymore (only freelance), I cannot stress enough how every time I see the next wave of class sets, I just wince at how blatantly some miss the mark. I think overall, the WoW Art team are absolutely dynamite- but there needs to be a greater consistency in quality.

Take the plate sets for example;

  • Warrior seems to have about a 1/10 chance of being “average” at worst. Besides that outlier, they’re either cool, pretty cool, or downright awesome.
  • Death Knight & Paladin have a 3/10 chance of being average or worse.

Why is this? Why are they so consistently able to create sets that hit the bullseye or close to it every time? It’s because the class fantasy is clear, and the spec identity falls within that fantasty coherently enough.

Lemme elaborate.

IMO the other classes (namely Cloth and Leather) average about a 4 or 5/10 on the scale when it comes to likelihood of their set being a hit or miss. That’s ok, art is subjective at the end of the day. But here’s where I feel Hunter is so hard done by, fuddled and botched…

Every time there’s a new class set, the set itself first and foremost needs to hit a generic understanding of what that class is. Then, by cleverly utilizing colour variation across LFR, Normal, Heroic, Mythic, Gladiator, and Elite, you can find a means to lean further into specificity of your spec fantasy. This is usually quite easy, because the artists usually cover the “ground” of each spec through those colours.

Example: I’m a Mage player, and love my sets to be purple when in Arcane spec, Blue/White when in Frost spec, and Red/Burning when in Fire spec. Even if a mage set like the Firelands (tier 12) or BWD/BoT (tier 11) sets come out, which are both inherently fire themed, (one being Ragnaros-inspired, the other being adorned in phoenix feathers), I can still acquire a blue, purple, or red versions of them (in some cases, these come out in the form of alternative means, and sometimes delayed like Island Expeditions). But what I’m left with is the ability to still feel like my class and/or spec fantasy some way or another. (The purple Mage tier 11 set is still unobtainable, but exists in the files).

Like that example, Death Knight does the same, often sporting colour variations that elude to blood, frost, or decay, even if with subtlety, and so on. But even if they don’t, and the set only has one fixed colour scheme, it still knows exactly what class the set is made for. The designers know that they’re still make a Death Knight or Mage set. The identity of the class can be broken down to fundamentals, and then built back up with a new spin on the concept.

The dilemma with Hunter is that first and foremost, it shares an armour type with Shaman. When they need to share sets (like BfA, Shadowlands, or Trial of the Crusader), they’re caught in this crossroad between leaning into animalistic, bestial designs, and chainmail, and archery armour. The other armour types dodge this bullet because you don’t need such on the nose imagery to convey themes. The Nathria plate set for example hits the mark for all 3 plate wearers, despite being identical. It hits a shining knight, gothic knight, and castlevania vibe all at the same time with literally just… plate.

But when we take the focal lens off of Shaman entirely, and look specifically at Hunter; there is still a tug of war happening all the same. When you break down what Beast Mastery, Marksmanship, and Survival all are conceptually they could not be more different. At face value:

  • Beast Mastery should be the spec adorned in fur, bone, pelts, dirt, and leaves. That spec is objectively the most “one with the animals”.
  • Survival doesn’t know what the hell it even is, but based off of their gameplay I would say that survival is the most closely tied to machines. Traps, bombs, ropes, munitions of varying chemicals. The pet is almost secondary to the whole concept. This spec aesthetically demands militant gear, almost like Rambo.
  • Marksmanship should be about being properly covered in mail. You want to be durable, and well reinforced like plate- but still light enough to be nimble, should your giant distance between you and the enemy be breached. Chainmail, thick leather guards, scopes, lens, sniper imagery.

So the art team is stuck with a major conundrum here. Unlike the Mage, DK, or Warrior examples, where they need to make one set for each class, with Hunter? They’re thematically screwed no matter what way they slice it. When they make a generic set to appeal to the fantasy of all 3 specs? They’ve created an ugly mish-mash that appeals to nobody. And when they decide to lean into the fantasy of one specific hunter spec? They’ve got a statistical 66% chance of “missing the mark” every single time.

So every time I see a new hunter set, and see Hunter players (my alt is a Hunter) complain, I sympathize. But I also sympathize with the art team who are burdened with a near-impossible task that the design team have created for them. What results are sets that I see and simply think “they made this in a confused panic”. Those sets usually end up being the ones that just look like a generic and lifeless blot of dead animal parts, a plank of wood or patch of fur, and then a little bit of chain thrown into it all.

The solution? Pretty simple actually, and one they’ve done in the past during WoD.
For those who remember, WoD 6.0 debuted with a unique concept we’ve not seen since;

For each class, all of their sets across Raid and PvP shared the same boots, pants, gloves, belt, chest, and cape, and all of which sported different colours depending on the source of acquisition (just like how it is currently). The noteworthy part though, was how the Shoulders and Helmets were unique to every source (and sometimes belt too). When coupled with a different colour scheme entirely, this allowed for an almost completely new-set feel. Most people don’t even notice at first glance that all of those sets do in fact share 75% of the same model assets.

(If you still have doubts/were unaware of this entirely, I’ve whipped up a comparison to illustrate my point: [ https ://imgur. com/lZdYj1e ] (remove the spaces))

See how they’re all using the same assets, albeit recoloured, but with unique shoulders and helms? It completely sells a different idea. What I’m proposing, is that same concept, but applied to specs instead of PvP/PvE. On paper, that’s a metric f ton of unique shoulders and helms to make for every set, but when you consider this game’s dev team size, it really isn’t that drastic of an idea.

I honestly think that the only solution to the “why do hunter sets always look like trash” dilemma, is either rebuilding Hunter as a class from the ground up so that all 3 specs share a uniform vision, or doing a change like this that allows specificity for the artists to bullseye what makes each spec unique and visually appealing.

So before I wrap this up, let’s, for fun, Imagine a Hunter set, and just like usual, laden with chain, fur, animal bone or wood for all parts but the head/shoulders. The belt has a small map rolled up, a vial or two, and a small mechanism on the side. The gloves, boots, and chest look like they are wearing reinforced leather, with small fur noticeable in the cracks of the leather wrappings. All 3 specs would share this.

  • For Beast Mastery? The helmet and shoulders are made of thick fur tufts, tightly wound by vine and rope, and trimmed with the points of antler and claw. The head piece is a giant pelt that envelops around the neck, and doubles as both something warm for the winter, but also something that makes the hunter look large and intimidating. Their face is marked with paint, mud, and they wear the skull of a former pet that died in combat, in their memory. At a distance, the hunter’s shoulders resemble giant bestial claws, and their headpiece makes them look like a fearsome drust creature almost.

  • For Marksmanship. Chains woven and linked together so that nothing can pierce them. One shoulder is strapped with numerous arrows, all coated differently. The other shoulder has a quiver strapped to the back, as well as a map at the front. Their helmet, also adorned with chain, fully coats their neck and collar, covered by a thick helmet that has a scope built in to one eye, but leaves the rest of the face revealed. Leather straps firmly tighten it all together, and leave the hunter looking heavily reinforced, but still able to move loosely.

  • For Survival (taking liberties here since this spec identity is so clouded honestly), both shoulders are firmly reinforced with plate & chain. One shoulder has a bomb storage case bolted on, and a compartment for gunpowder. The other shoulder is smaller, and more akin to a supply pack strapped to the arm. Tied to the wearer’s arm with bandage & rope, alongside a hunting knife. Their helmet is a face guard similar to engineering goggles, but also covers the nose, and hair. On the side of the helmet is an ear piece similarly to Mechagnome speaker-ears, and on the other side is a collection of gears slightly exposed. The helmet has “hair”, that is actually leaf and net, and drapes down along the back of the wearer’s head, and behind their shoulders, so that if spotted from behind while hiding in a bush, the back of their head would conceal them. Between it all is a “garnish” of rope and chain.

Now whether or not you think my ideas suck is totally up to you, but that offers a vastly higher chance of the Hunter liking their set for once, as it has a far higher chance of leaning into what they want to see from a Hunter set in the first place. Design theory! Fun!

Thank you for coming to my TED talk.

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I appreciate your super high effort post and agree with this point

Especially even more so now, as Mail is a very hard “general armor type” to get down, well, generally at all. Now with Evoker it has even more of a mish-mash feel to it potentially, as Mail needs to satisfy a generally fantasy of “Spiritual Elementalist”, “Rugged Tracker”, and “Ancient Military Dragon”, which doesn’t seem like an easy task.

I think this is a flawed reading of the spec, as it has no more machines or chemicals than the other specs. It’s definitely a more guerilla themed spec though, so SV specific gear would just have things like bandoliers or utility pouches on the waist, definitely more thick armor than BM and MM as it’s a melee combatant.

Things like the Nightold tier set are usually well received, but who knows it it would be received so well after many iterations of “military ranger” tier sets.

Again, the SV identity isn’t really that clouded at all unless you’re not really willing to look at the spec for what it is, a guerilla ranger that fights with their pet and uses a versatile toolkit to do it.

Really appreciate your input!

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Yes, and I was talking about specific instances where weapon designs were generated in formats for every class but ranged hunter - most notably with early dragonflight armor not having a ranged weapon to match the cosmetic sets when melee and caster weapons were covered.

I’m not playing “who has it worse” with you. I’m pointing out an anomaly.

it definitely would be nice if ranged weapons were less of an afterthought with world gear

Blizzard hasn’t put a single armor set in game that matches the “Nature Ranger / Enchanted Forest” thematic that I like to play as. The Ardenweald covenant set with the Autumn color was close, but very bland and had random blue horns sticking off the shoulders, with olive green mixed in for some unknown reason, completely ruined any possible cohesion.

My Ideal theme is Autumn leaves, browns, maroon/vibrant reds, vibrant oranges, and some beige. Also like my Ranger to have some control or be imbued with the Wind but the wind arrows on the talent tree are a joke just used to proc Trueshot.

Anyone interested just look up the Windranger Arcana for Dota 2, and look at the Autumn color variant. Or better yet, take a peek at the Havenwood Armour set and Havenwood Bow and Quiver on Path of Exile. Also all the other stuff like cloak and pets.

Stuff is awesome but I know we’ll never get anything even close.

Survival Hunter 4-Piece set will consist of being stripped down to your underwear while covered in mud and leaves.