You don’t build a skyscraper from the top down.
3 Likes
No inconsistency can be perfectly rectified. In turn there would be people who started playing with the modern presentation of them of them weaker/worse in this hypothetical. Since the point was ‘I want lore consistency’ rather than marketing that’s inherently varied from these changes for groups.
Well the entire concept of the hypothetical is changing lore.
Good thing a story isn’t a building and doesn’t require conformity to such things.
Going to have to disagree here and agree with Akiyass. A story or even a fictional world requires a foundation to build upon. Otherwise, you have an utter narrative mess when you decide to make major changes that don’t conform to the foundation or try to change the foundation itself.
You just can’t change the foundation when everyone is used to it after many years of story.
5 Likes
It actually does. A story needs a foundation the same as a building. Worldbuilding 101, culture and society develops under the constraints of the environment. Those who live in hot, sunny environments are going to dress differently than people living in cold, dark environments. So, you start with the world. The climate, the weather, the terrain, and you build up from that foundation.
If you do it backwards. If you have a foundation that you change to fit what you are doing at the top of the tower, you have a weak tower, you have a weak story. In fact, you don’t have a story, you have little more than a game of make believe like you’re a child out at recess.
That’s not a story. When you have a fandom of people who are dedicated to your world, you have an obligation to deliver something that is built from the foundations of that world. Not to deliver something completely different than what they wanted.
3 Likes
I don’t really disagree. I disagree on what would be considered foundational for the purpose of this idea. Or that story decisions are purely linear top to bottom.
I wouldn’t call Night Elves being stronger than every race foundational at all, let alone after supposedly a decade of being meh.
Plus, if a foundation is bad, it should be changed! Originally Orcs worshipped Satan. Good thing that changed.
No. Not having an end in mind is a major pitfall of a lot of modern stories.
It needs one at all. That can be setting or overall arc first, doesn’t have to be one or the other. You can do the end (top) bottom, or middle in any order when conceptualizing. Ultimately the building analogy is bad. None of the prior discussion was about changing foundation. It was about parts of the building above that.
Having an end in mind built from the beginning. Not the other way around.
When you are writing a story, sure. You can work in whatever direction you want. But you can’t change book 1 because of something that happened in book 5. That’s being lazy, and assumes your base is either stupid, or simply not all that attached to your story in the first place.
There is also a difference between story telling and worldbuilding. They require very different processes. You don’t need an ending in mind when worldbuilding. Since we are talking about Night Elves and their place in the world, this is a worldbuilding discussion, primarily.
I wouldn’t say it was in the foundation to begin with. People just toss it out to justify outrageous story developments.
Nothing wrong with having an end and build your beginning from that.
Sure you can. Is it good? No. But neither is having wildly inconsistent things in book one and book five when working on book six.
Again, we’re talking about ways to fix something already inconsistent. And consistency was the supposed value.
Well, if you really want to talk about consistency, then here’s an idea for you: Align the presentation so it reflects what goes into the text.
Did the Night Elf defense force in Ashenvale “Hindenburg” the Horde at the Farfallen river or nearly tank their offensive in Astranaar? Cool. Let’s see that. Is the Horde losing on all fronts as Nathanos claimed in BFA? Alright, let’s see it. Let’s present those fronts.
Because if we go to the text, it differs pretty wildly from what Blizzard actually invests in portraying.
Better if you actually keep your own lore straight and never write inconsistencies. By your own admittance, fixing by changing the foundation of the story is not a good solution. So you’re just arguing to be a contrarian at this point.
Night Elves should have been written consistently, period.
I feel I probably should push back a bit more strongly - because I’m seeing the argument that the Night Elves need to be “superior” to maintain their position creep back, which I think is what this really is about.
I’ve replied to this somewhat already, but people seem to do this thing where, when assessing the reasonableness of a conflict, people act as though we’re throwing entire countries at each other at the same time in a manner that feels like we’re dumping them into Final Destination from Super Smash Brothers and watching to see what happens. That’s not how warfare works. Logistics matter, guarding the home front matters, geographical positioning matters, geopolitical boundaries matter, the economy matters, oceans matter. When we assess these things it makes certain scenarios absolutely absurd, and I shared a view on that already.
The Night Elves do not need to be presented as superior to any other race for them to hold their position. They have regional allies, a regional enemy that has multiple competing interests to grapple with besides just them, enemies that are an ocean away, allies that are also an ocean away, and terrain that couldn’t be more favorable to them. This was all ignored because Blizzard stopped caring about what made sense and about player investment because they wanted a stuffed in the fridge moment, and because, out of their boredom around writing for the Alliance, they wanted to simplify it by removing elements that disputed human leadership, themes, and characters.
Thread ended after this post.
2 Likes
Obviously true. I don’t doubt that’s everyone’s preference. Just not the reality.
It isn’t a good solution unless there are no other options. But as I said, this isn’t even about foundation. That’s a red herring to avoid the hypothetical.
Better stick to your own motivation before analyzing others.
It very easily could be. Just don’t be lazy.
There is always the option to be consistent with your writing and not half-as your own story.
If you are at the point where you need to retcon the past to make the present work, the it’s time to just stop and start over.
Except that’s the foundation laid in Warcraft 3. So you are just wrong here.
Power balance of the geo-political and military world is very important for a setting. Especially a setting so rooted in the concept of war.
I have to disagree here. Nothing from Warcraft 3 convinces me of relative power between the factions.
1 Like
Considering in WC3, the Night Elves were really the only faction with an established dominion. Unless you count the Scourge by the end of the game.
Everyone else was either not present, or refugees.
We’re discussing real life past decisions, so no.
Not if the mistake was already made and inconsistency exists.
Guess they could start over without Night Elves.
You’re incorrect, that’s not foundational. Their precise strength is more surface level in the broader scheme.
There were a fair number of orcs and trolls left behind in the EK, as well as Alliance kingdoms like Khaz Modan and Stormwind that to our knowledge were untouched by the war, with the latter being in a state of rebuilding. The Night Elves also lost a LOT in Warcraft 3, like the entire territory of Felwood and the Watchers for the most part.
Yes it could.
And you solution isn’t to undo the mistake, but to under everything before it that people actually liked and enjoyed? Brilliant.
Also, going forward, Blizzard should hold themselves to a higher standard and avoid making those mistakes to begin with. But we both know they don’t actually care about Warcraft lore.
Well, if they want to drop that many fans from the fandom, that certainly is an idea.
I am, in fact, correct. Your ill informed opinions about story telling and worldbuilding doesn’t give you the authority to say otherwise.
That either weren’t part of the Horde, or not consolidated with the might of the rest of the faction, so inconsequential.
Stormwind was in the process of being rebuilt. I don’t think even Stormwind could have rebuilt itself to be the powerhouse it is today in a matter of just a few years. Ironforge is fair, but they weren’t major players in Warcraft 3.
Comparatively small compared to almost everyone else.
Eeeeeehhh…
This kind of dovetails with a point that I’ve never brought up - but Night Elf lands in general got absolutely ravaged in Warcraft 3, and IIRC, the population losses were pretty heavy.
I don’t bring it up for the same reason that I don’t bring up the fall of Silvermoon or Warcraft 2 - these tragedies happened in another medium, they were a prologue for the MMO, and Night Elf players didn’t experience them in that format. But that doesn’t mean that they didn’t happen.