Human "bigotry" and Forsaken "backstabbing"

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I mean, yeah you could control Garithos for a long while ideally, but it’s worth noting even with said Dreadlord one of the Ogres from WC3 DOES break out of his control in Vanilla. Don’t ask me how you break Banshee possession, I don’t know, maybe the Banshee just vanishes. You might be able to setup an unfortunate accident, but I would think the humans would probably get pretty suspicious if Garithos tried to take a bath in a river with his armor on and just drowned.

As for actions, yeah the Forsaken absolutely do horrible stuff to their enemies, but it’s not like humans, especially humans in the Scarlet Crusade, have a compunction with killing Forsaken even when they are surrendering(Something even the Alliance has done.) or torturing their enemies to death. Because by the same token that Frank Castle can be understandable and sympathetic despite doing horrible things, a big component of that is that his enemies are also just plain awful people, and humanity has not been doing that good a job of showing the Forsaken they deserve trust, leading to these actions because this happens even if the Forsaken in question has done nothing to humans and the humans in question don’t even know what they are.

The self fulfilling prophecy goes both ways.

As for Akiyass: Yes the Jewish people were not powerless in Germany but the fear that the Jews would somehow hurt the German people was unfounded, there was no malicious intent as far as I could tell. There is a vast gap between economic control over key points in a nation making people somewhat uneasy vs the majority of that population waving a gun in your face. The threat is much more immediate, understandable, and more importantly then that there’s consistent proof that humanity will just attack you for being undead. It’s not an isolated incident between the two groups.

A little addendum to Lordaenian History: The camps were made to try and save the orcs, not to enslave them, they would make terrible slaves anyway due to the lethargy rendering them immobile. Slavery, by and large, is the legacy of Blackmoore specifically who took over after Danath could no longer serve as wardens for the camps. Human experimentation and Abominations are definitely a thing that the Forsaken do that is morally reprehensible, but not every Forsaken is a member of the RAS either and judging by captain Hyde choosing to respect the spirits of the dead, and the Desolate Council sympathizing with humanity in BtS, they don’t seem universally inclined to believe either of those things are good.

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I fear this has become relevant once again lmao

To be fair while the experimentation has been around forever its only in cata where the things got way out of hand

When the punisher kills someone, there is a good 8/10 (minus those stupid AUs where he kills the entire universe or something equally stupid) chance that person deserved it or were minions of the person that deserved it.

The forsaken cannot claim that under this sun or any other unless the scarlets or garrosh (we can all agree he ruined things for everyone all the way since wrath) are involved.

With the amount of innocent blood on their hands they have largely surrendered any moral high ground they might have had over the living

Anyway, im gonna be busy for about 5 hours now- dont panick if takes me a while to awnser any replies you might have :stuck_out_tongue:

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Um… You need to read up on your European History. Britain was losing to Germany during WW1. Germany had been asking Britian for a cease fire for some time before the United States joined the War. The Imperialist nation of England was so desperate to not lose a war, and conscript the Aid of the US, they drew away their destroyer escort so a German U-boat could attack the Lusitania.

At the time though, much of the United States was Ethnically German, and the public expressed a lot of German support. It wasn’t until The Balfour Declaration, when public opinion in the US began to change, likely due to the Jewish Zionist aligned New York TImes. Over night the news in The United States went from Germany good to Germany is bayonetting babies.

The United States completely changed the ebb and flow of the war in the Allies favor, stirring unrest in Germany and starting the German Revolution, the result of which was a new German puppet Government appointed by German Zionists, who immediately surrendered.

After WW1, germany was in ashes, there was starvation, sickness, inflation, mass unemployment… People lost their families, their life savings, they were evicted from their homes.

And while the masses were starving and dying in filth, the wealthy jews stayed wealthy and were barely affected since they ran the banks.

Imagine the feeling when you can’t feed your children and you watch them wither away from starvation and can do absolutely nothing about it because you can’t find work and then you see some smug snob walking by, smirking at you in an expensive coat and a full wallet, how would you feel? chances are you’d hate him, and that’s exactly what happened

So to say German fear of Jews would somehow German people being unfounded is not really true, as it had already happened. The Threat and resentment was certainly there and it makes statements like this:

Unfounded.

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I disagree with this assessment on multiple fronts, so i’ll try to break it down as concisely as possible.

While the Forsaken have definitely killed more innocent people then Frank Castle has, there is also an element to consider in that most humans we’ve talked to on the subject seem more then fine with at the very least killing undead. It reminds a bit of Genn Greymane in Before the Storm when he’s talking to interviewees about how they should remember the Forsaken were once the scourge as if they were indistinguishable from one another.

And I can see the point of view: They use meat wagons, have abominations, use blight weaponry, to the average peasant that is the Scourge for all intents and purposes. But there is also a bit of a double standard if you don’t take this assessment and also apply it to the Scarlet Crusade and humanity. I would argue from Vanilla to BfA, the major ideological difference between the two groups wasn’t that some of them didn’t want to kill the undead in the same way some undead didn’t have any desire to exterminate the living, but rather it was mostly their racism towards other non-humans that made them incompatible.

Ideologically the idea to wipe out all the Forsaken ever fits in their mentality just fine, troops in Pyrewood were basically surrendering to the Alliance and executed on the spot. You can say ‘Well they have a badge that says they are in armed forces so they are free game’ but that sidesteps a lot of snarling moral questions that come up when you factor in the Alliances goal was to take Lordaeron and probably kill everyone inside, the first Worgen you meet in Trisfal says as much, and in that way a lot of Forsaken have to fight whether they want to fight or not.

Likewise humans have a history of some very Scarlet Crusade behavior, like taking Forsaken hearts and ritualistically burning them on an alter at the behest of their totally-innocent-and-righteous pope who is in reality an agent of the Old Gods, it really doesn’t help their case when they have at least once tried to warm up to renegade elements of the Crusade in Cata, and trying to join forces with them before it was found out the crusade wants to stab all of the Alliance too.

Varians idea of mercy killing the Forsaken also has some Scarlet Crusadery undertones to it, it’s a mentality that infected everyone from the bottom to the top. at the very least with the Forsaken they have consistently tried to fight Arthas pretty much wherever his forces show up, where humans…even tolerant humans like the Argent Crusade, have backed off on fighting all the Scarlets more then once.

So they might not be directly burning Forsaken alive as a means of Light torture towards undead, civilian or soldier, themselves…but they aren’t really condemning the action either, and while there are Forsaken who think other Forsaken are evil for doing this stuff to humans, i’v not met many humans who think the Scarlet Crusade is evil for doing that to undead. You kind of run into the Stephan Marris problem if these societies try to integrate, where some vigilante will just throw on the Argent Dawn Tabard and start bashing in undead heads left and right.

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