People were told that Mage Tower was meant to be challenging (both times) and you saw how well that went.
Which 10 min. WQ drops loot comparable to a +15, seeing as you compared doing open world content (like WQs) to doing a +15? Did you forget that part when you responded?
Thatâs right. Sit down.
True, but I think the caveat here is that M+ still has something going for it well after that cap, whereas open world content really doesnât. Open world content lacks any replayability, whereas M+'s main pull is the push for increasing difficulties and higher keys. Itâs the challenge that keeps people playing beyond their cap. Open world content doesnât have any of that.
You are creating a problem by insisting that people donât deserve gear progression unless the content meets your standards for being challenging.
Not all players want their content to be that challenging. But they do want to get stronger and be able to complete that content more quickly or safer over time.
This is an MMO. You need to reward players for their time investment as well as their skill.
4 Likes
Casuals this expansion received Normal Raid equivalent gear. I donât know why you said normal dungeon. Casuals received 252 Cypher gear in ZM that was more powerful than anything Mythic Raid had to offer in open-world content. Casuals were able to unlock all set bonuses and conduits without stepping foot in group-instanced content.
How can you sit there and say they didnât get rewarded? You canât.
Letâs break down the math even further for you because you continue to overlook this.
In season 3, our last full raid and M+ tier:
654,755 US&OCE characters participated in M+
855,225 European characters participated in M+
74,560 Korean characters participated in M+
32,828 Taiwan characters participated in M+
That equates to 1,617,368 characters that participated in M+ not including China (which would realistically add another near 1,000,000). Again, this was M+ alone, not even counting Raid participation.
This is also after GD complains about how 80% of wow players are gone and quit.
Based on your own ânumbersâ of less than 50% participating in group instanced content, we would be at a minimum of ~8 million subs characters right now. Which we all know isnât true.
3 Likes
Yeah, the people that wanted to get it done on day 1 complained that they could not for the first one, thing is the first one also had the soft nerf of gear active. The second, some things might have been out of whack tuning wise, but it got the fixes needed and likely did quite well.
Part of the issue is there is no build up in some areas, and people want their rewards âNOW NOW NOWâ.
If you want a game that provides instant rewards, go else where, if you want content that you have to work on completing, maybe with stop gaps to give you that dopamine to push on, feel free to stay.
1 Like
nothing you said makes sense. why do people run the same raid over and over again? the foes arenât getting more challenging. youâre learning, and gearing up, so you can beat them, and beat them easier.
same thing with open world rares/bosses. when a fresh 60 first steps into ZM, most of the rares are unsoloable. eventually you can solo them after learning the fights and gearing up. itâs the exact same thing. and itâs no more a âdead endâ than beating all the bosses in a raid is a âdead endâ.
4 Likes
Because there are 20+ people and the bosses only drop 4 items each, once per week.
And once everything is cleared? Because there are 20+ people and the last boss only drops 2 mounts per week.
Are they characters or accounts? Multiple people can run multiple characters so this isnât exactly an accurate estimate for how many people actually participate M+. Furthermore, who is included in this statistic? Are we including people who did a single M+ run and didnât pursue any more keys beyond that? No offense, but I donât consider people who donât consistently engage with M+ on a regular basis to be indicative of anything other than outliers. Pulling them into that statistic is disingenuous.
Above all, however, this statistic doesnât consider the many people who have left the game because of this focus. Assuming that this is actually 1.6 million accounts and not 1.6 million characters, I would not necessarily be surprised considering M+ and raiding are the only two content avenues worth doing. It makes sense to me then that the rest of the players uninterested in this content to leave the game and find their enjoyment elsewhere. We should consider these players because it would certainly contextualize this statistic more.
3 Likes
Yea ff14 is the better game. Iâm not going to be playing dragonflight much at all if Iâm not seeing changes to make the game more fair and fun for everyone
7 Likes
you know open world content has rare mount drops too, yes? you have no argument. every point you make for raiding also applies to open world content. the only difference is open world is less structured. which is why many people prefer it to instanced content.
1 Like
Yes, Iâm quite sure I have far more of them than you do, in fact.
It specifically states characters in order to not be disingenuous information. I understand people have alts, but the numbers are still large and still does not count any raid participation or pvp.
I was specifically talking to someone who said less than 50% participate in group instanced content. So, yes, these people would count.
You obviously didnât read or comprehend my post, or are trying to quote me out of context to make me look wrong.
My point was that if you think open world players only deserve Normal dungeon iLvl gear rewards, then the ZM Normal raid iLvl gear rewards are indeed too good.
But if you consider the fact that open world players used to be able to earn a full set of Heroic iLvl gear, then Normal raid iLvl from ZM is a nerf, and not that good of a reward.
Open world players certainly get rewards. But whether those rewards in SL were too good or not good enough depends on who you ask. Itâs subjective.
This tells me nothing about the number of players doing M+. Players can and do have multiple characters, especially hardcore players and boosters.
And you have to consider that some players only do a few +2s during the dungeon event.
And letâs be honest, there is probably a lot of overlap between M+ and raiding. M+ weekly vault rewards have been too good to pass up if you are progressing on a raid, and some raiders might even do M+ because they enjoy it.
6 Likes
oh look, a complete non sequitur. want to know how i know youâve lost the argument?
You guys like to pretend that other people donât enjoy the world content, is the thing. When many of us enjoy it and do it far more than the people who are complaining. Itâs sheer comedy.
It tells you a lot more than anything you have been able to provide. I asked where you got your numbers and statistics from and all you have been able to say were âachievement trackersâ. When I said they donât distinguish active players and inactive players from 10 years ago you conveniently ignored it.
Your method of measuring the player base and the content they participate in is worse than nothing.
So why bring it up then? To give some perspective on this, if every 2 characters accounted for 1 player, that would half the statistic of 1.6 million that you gave.
Now obviously thatâs probably not the case, but I would bet there are plenty of people who push M+ with 3 characters, maybe even 4. We cannot gauge this in any way because we donât have another statistic to cross-reference it. All youâre saying with a statistic like this is that 1.6 million characters have M+ progression.
And to be completely honest with you, a lot of people do both raid and M+. Very rarely do I ever see people focusing solely on one. If I were to look at any personâs activity here, more than likely I would see raid progression and M+ keys. There is significant overlap between the two so including raid progression probably wonât do much to benefit your argument.
To be fair, I think theyâre wrong, too. Nobody actually knows and anybody making such a claim is making major assumptions.
3 Likes
No WQ is going to drop loot comparable to a 15 because WQs are braindead thats the point.
Stop trying to look smart. You are bad at it.
Yes it would, but still does not include all of China, any raid participation, and pvp.