Haven’t tested raiding at all in beta.
Is PoH build actually better than Lightweaver?
Nobody knows atm because everyone’s still using flash concentration.
Any idea from beta? not talking about prepatch
In beta, people have been running a ton of things.
That said, I’m fairly certain you will never want to take Lightweaver in raid. From the math I’ve done the gain is fairly low considering you have to flash heal for every buffed heal.
From what I can tell Divine Word and Miracle Worker are too good to give up in place of LW.
As far as whether a build that mostly casts heal, or a build that mostly casts PoH is better - well, that’s really hard to say right now. All I think can be said is that PoH is significantly more mana - so that build would have to be very careful. And there’s a decent number of heal synergies (and divine word serenity is very, very good) even without taking lightweaver.
Thanks.
I believe that Heal as a filler and PoH on high aoe dmg might be the go to with Divine word.
We’ll see I guess
I need to note that Miracle Worker is not as good as it was as a PvP talent (mostly because you’re missing the additional CDR). It’s nice to have, but not a notable HPS gain.
We will see regardless what takes preference, and also pending additional tuning.
With free apotheosis procs, it is. Currently expecting the Hpriest build to be something like: https://www.wowhead.com/beta/talent-calc/priest/holy/DAQFFBVBUARBRAoVKIUCFQOVFAFQJURJlFIIUCRQ
Even if miracle worker didn’t get taken, Restitution is a better talent than lightweaver - as you both get the cheese power of the talent, but also can abuse the time you have of free mana.
Lightweaver requiring a flash heal cast for each heal versus just 2 heals in a row is not actually much of a gain at all.
I agree re: Restitution, but unless I’ve missed a significant recent behaviour change, the Apoth procs won’t reset Holy Words, and Apoth itself only grants 1 charge, even with Miracle Worker active.
I need to stress I’m not arguing in favour of Lightweaver, but MW is not a high impact talent. If it still had the additional CD component that it used to have, then it’d be stronger.
I think I’ll fully lose my mind if I have to spend another tier mostly pressing Heal.
If you’re spamming heal and PoM, 8s of apoth will give you a charge of Serenity easily and ensures you never waste a charge overcapping somehow. Considering Pontifex exists - and our tier set procs off the recharge, it should actually be a pretty good gain.
Even if we ignore pontifex/resonant words, just 1 extra cast of serenity and sanc is already an HPS increase that’s better than LW.
All you need to capitalise on that synergy is the Apotheosis procs, though. You’re better off filling other nodes than taking MW, or if you’re considering that node, then in most use-cases Restitution will have more value.
If you’re overcapping Holy Word charges, then that’s an issue with gameplay rather than talents. The only time MW has value is if you will need to be banking charges for whatever reason (specific scenarios in M+, PvP maybe, but given its weighted against Restitution I’m not liking its odds).
If MW still had the additional CDR/cast component that it had as a PvP talent, then it becomes a good talent and a strong consideration. As it stands, assuming good play, it’s exactly 1 additional Serenity and Sanctify per (raid) fight, and that’s not good value at all.
Let’s say Apotheosis procs during a heal cast, or in the last third of a serenity CD - since you can’t control the proc time - you’ll lose some of apoth’s CDR no matter how you look at it. You can’t play better to prevent that.
Alongside that, if you’re at 0 charge (and the goal would generally be to play as close to 0 charge as possible), even if you only get one full charge of serenity per 8s Apoth, you get another cast of apoth CDR that you wouldn’t have as well. Let’s say we have 15% haste. Heal is looking to be a 1.9s cast. In 8 seconds, we can get 4 of those. That’s 86 seconds off of Serenity considering LoTN.
If we have 1 charge, we cast 3 to get 63s of CDR (that’s 3s wasted on overcap), then HW:S, then our final cast finishes after Apoth ends. If we have 2 charges, we get the full 86 seconds, no questions.
Or you could just play the guaranteed output talents, that give said output consistently when you need it, and take the strong raid utility capstone. It’s a lot of minmaxing for little-to-no overall gain.
As it stands, it requires a lot of caveats to make it worth considering in the first place, and the ‘randomness’ (not really, but also sort of) with regards to the Apoth procs is undesirable. I’m also not enamoured by the thought of overhealing to bank charges/not waste charges in the first place, since you’d want to be casting Heal/FH/PoH/whatever to ensure value, ergo not wasting the proc.
From a mana economy perspective re: maximising the apoth procs, it’s not great, and those said same GCDs would be better served by DPS-ing rather than gaming a talent for minimal gain.
It’s not a good talent, WCP and others will reinforce that.
I do enjoy the discussions, though, and it’s a few QoL changes away from being a genuine consideration.
Well for one, it IS guaranteed output - again, even if we aren’t talking about lost CDR, you get one more cast of Serenity and Sanctify in each fight. That is, unironically, a decent talent anyway. But beyond that, you aren’t going to lose CDR with this talent setup - and should be generating more CDR than possible on one charge.
For two, like what? We already took divine word. Lightweaver isn’t strong output, lighwell isn’t strong output (though ironically, better than lightweaver). We could take CoH or 2/2 resonant I suppose, but both of those should be less hps than the potential loss in CDR. And if we’re talking about mana economy, CoH is still technically worse than more heal spam with ToL. 1 point in harmonius? That’s a near 0% hps increase.
Sure, but I don’t think this argument can co-exist with your earlier position that with optimal play you wouldn’t waste charge even without Miracle Worker. Because in the same breath, I could tell you that there will be scenarios where you don’t want to immediately spend HW:S and should cast a holy fire.
This is only true in the scenario that Apoth proc happens with 0 damage needing to be healed. (And 0 damage needing to be healed for the next ~40 seconds after) This is incredibly unlikely from what I experienced in the beta, but I suppose it could happen.
All that said, IMO, if WCP thinks miracle worker/answered prayers are terrible talents right now, they’re dead wrong. And it wouldn’t be the first time that that was the case near the start of the xpac.
I just decided this build with what I’ve read here:
Heal as a filler → CoH + Divine word + Sanctify on heavy aoe dmg.
You can opt to get rid of Holy oration if you want more PoM healing
I’m just keeping Restitution for progress, if it’s farming I’ll probably change it for miracle worker.
Wanna try Lightwell build tho but probably only on farming:
When I’m talking about Answered Prayers, I’m discussing it in the context of using it with Miracle Worker. I don’t think the talent itself is bad, just MW. It does still have some bugs at the moment (stacks stop building sometimes if you extend an active apoth proc with another one–this is mostly a Salv thing), but it’s not bad by any stretch. Alabaster Lady was a solid legendary, this is the same in that respect.
If you want my genuine opinion, from what I’ve seen and experienced, you would just take Divine Word and dedicate points to grabbing the rest of the CDR/worthwhile PoM/PoH talents, and ignore your other capstones, with the potential for Lightweaver if you’re investing in that side of the tree moreso than the right.
It very easily coexists, since in the scenario where I’m not taking it, I’m not needing to maximise an Apotheosis proc purely to get value out of a lacklustre talent. Sitting on a charge for a moment in a raid healing scenario is fine. Letting an Apotheosis proc go to waste because otherwise I’m not playing with a capstone talent is not fine.
WCP thinks MW specifically is not good (not just them, mind, but that’s the most accessible source). I like Answered Prayers, but I don’t think it makes MW even worth looking at.
A better way of phrasing my thoughts, I think, is that you’re able to get the parts of what made Miracle Worker good (the CDR), without actually having to take Miracle Worker. If you need that node, it’ll be for Restitution before it’s ever the double charges. You’re overvaluing x seconds of ‘wasted’ CDR, but not weighing it up against the gains made elsewhere.
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Yeah, I just highly disagree. You say I’m not measuring up the opportunity cost, but that’s precisely what I’m doing. I just don’t see any node that is better value which hasn’t been taken in my build.
I think not wasting CDR is pretty core to the Hpriest playstyle come DF, especially considering it should allow for more consistent double salv. That, and I don’t think there’s any single talent point that’s better barring Restitution if you can make value out of it - and I don’t think there’s any talent points on the tree that are more valuable than the set of PoM talents (except maybe Divine Service, which also seems fairly bad). Even if you don’t use the Apoth proc for CDR, Answered Prayers is still a pretty nice mana save.
The only CDR talent not taken is Harmonius Apparatus, which is honestly not a high value point at 2/2, let alone 1/2. Miracle Worker on average would save more CDR through any given fight - and I’m not taking CoH in a heal-focused build either.
So yeah, I think it’s restitution or bust there.
The PoH talents have some potential, but that build is going to be VERY taxing on mana, and to be honest, I think it’s a really, really bad idea to spec towards both heal and PoH. There’s merit to a PoH build, but if you’re going to do it, you should probably cut out most of the talents that work off of heal in order to beef up PoH, and continue the Answered prayers route. I also think if you’re going PoH, Restitution gains a lot of value because 0 mana cost PoH spam during a portion of the fight should actually be pretty good if you can game it.
There’s another factor you’re missing and that’s speed itself. Even with Unwavering Will, you’re still looking at a 2 second cast time on Heal before any other haste buffs. If you dip below 75% hp, it’s back to 2.5 second cast. It’s not likely going to be a parsing build relying solely on Heal.
I still think Mastery/Haste stacking will be the future to get baseline Heal cast time closer to 1.5 in addition to scaling pretty much every other healing ability in the kit including Renew.
I definitely already considered that, along with the 1s off from the tier set.
Heal seems to just be better in general, even at a longer cast time. But also you’re going to have a huge amount of uptime on unwavering will. You don’t drop below that threshold that often in a fight.
I’ve been doing log analyzing on Holy talents over the last few weeks and several of these talents are weighted a lot heavier than others.
This is assuming a Lightweaver build.
- All the PoM talents (+healing bonus from Benediction) add up to PoM being your 2nd highest HPS ability. Not taking all the PoM talents is akin to losing like 6-8% hps.
- Gale Songs is pretty strong. Divine Hymn is your 3rd highest heal now.
- Halo is fairly competitive against Divine Star in spread out scenarios. It can be about 5-6% of your healing.
- Cosmic Ripple is roughly a 3% hps increase which isn’t bad.
- Healing Chorus is roughly a 1-1.5% hps increase.
- Orison is a 3-4% hps increase.
- Desperate Times is a bigger hps increase than Resonant Words when you combo it with Twist of Fate.
- You can maintain a 50%+ up-time on Twist of Fate on multi-add boss fights by just leaving a couple SWPs floating around. Having a WA that tracks the uptime on Twist of Fates is probably going to become fairly standard.
- Empyreal Blaze doubles a Holy Priests raid dps potential. I think early prog it’ll be an important talent to take, but not as important later on when stuff is on farm. It’s fairly hard to pack Empyreal Blaze into a raid heal build.
- Rapid Recovery beats out Empowered Renew.
- Divine Word is only a 5-6% hps boost if you use it for Sanctify. Miracle Worker in comparison is only around a 2-3% hps boost.
If Holy does go a PoH heavy build: all the PoH talents add up. I would say Prayerful Litany is worth skipping a point over though because you can make up for it by putting a point in another hps talent.
Holy won’t just only spam PoH though in a PoH build. You’ll be using either Flash Heal or Heal as filler when the groups not taking damage inbetwen your normal PoM and CoH key presses. So a few points in Trail of Light is still worth it.
Holy mending is that bad?
idk it sounds quite good when using Salvation for a bigger healing output in a heavy dmg situation.
I don’t like benediction having a 12% chance only…