How will classic affect retail server population?

[Fixiu-dalaran (Fixiu)]

Do you think the average player writes up a background for each character they make? Do they see the game through the lens of the personalized story you tried to tell above about the character Nyl? No, they don’t. And that doesn’t exist any more or less in classic either. So congrats, you just proved that neither Classic nor retail are more or less RPG’s than each other. Thumbs up!

i realize this. unless, of course, it’s an rp server. then they might, in fact, it may be a requirement for their rp group. but the principle i was trying to establish is, those types of story are the backdrop for the typical rpg. this is why there is lore in wow. its meant to fill the world out and give it meaning and rationale.

[Sidearm-exodar (Sidearm)]

An irrelevant distinction that doesn’t actually substantively address anything. Nice job.

Says you.

Seriously though, people play the game for different reasons. Over time retail has evolved in a direction to optimize certain things, but has also made many unhappy along the way.

There was a population of players who approached WoW in a somewhat similar way to a tabletop RPG. Many of those people unsubbed.

[Fixiu-dalaran (Fixiu)]

here’s some people in retail trying to get blizzard to let them have san’layn as a playable horde race. they mean to rp the heck out of it.

but seems they will get vulpera instead. alliance wants silver covenant high elves, who they’ve formed a bond with and fought alongside of since tbc, but it seems they will get mechagnomes instead.

hehe… why?

[Nyl-sisters-of-elune]

i realize this. unless, of course, it’s an rp server. then they might, in fact, it may be a requirement for their rp group.

I’ve been on an RP server since Wrath. This isn’t the average player on an RP server either.

but the principle i was trying to establish is, those types of story are the backdrop for the typical rpg. this is why there is lore in wow. its meant to fill the world out and give it meaning and rationale.

So you’re trying to point at a foundation for something that exists in both retail and classic while trying to pretend that even though there’s far, far less of it in classic than retail, and in retail every player can experience the story wherein in classic only those who raided got that, but classic is more of an rpg? I mean, is logical consistency too much to ask for?

Says you.

Ah so you’re salty about the direction retail has gone, so you’re going to argue meaningless points that don’t make any sense because it’s an opportunity to bash retail? Classic and retail are both mmorpg’s. When talking about the difference between tabletop rpg’s and mmo’s, the difference is not that they’re both rpg’s, it’s that one is a personal story and the other is not. There is no personal story in an MMO. The closest I’ve seen is swotor with their class quests. And they were good. But you knew every other bounty hunter got the same quests. In a tabletop that’s not the case. It’s specifically tailored by the gm for you. So sure, if you want to argue a distinction without merit, by all means, fall down that hole of stupidity. Have at it. But WoW never catered to gameplay like that, not in vanilla, not in retail, not in Classic. So uh, what are you talking about again?

hehe… why?

Why what? Why are people trying to RP sanlayan in retail? What does this have to do with the topic or our discussion? Nothing. Just more tangential garbage leading nowhere.

[Fixiu-dalaran (Fixiu)]

I mean, is logical consistency too much to ask for?

to hear you tell it, it would seem so! made perfect sense to me at the time i wrote it down. if one lets you form groups and enter dungeons without even knowing their location in the game world, and the other says, go forth, find the entrance to the monster’s lair , etc etc.

you know what i mean. you just think i’m being unfair to retail.

[Katerina-mannoroth]

There’s definitely a chance for them to pick and choose what has worked and what hasn’t from post vanilla expansions. There’s some obvious flops like LFD but then there’s some winners like flying, flex raids and class halls.

The problem there is “killing players babies” all the same. I’d wager that up to WoD is about about as aggressive as they can get without enraging significant portions of the player base(Garrisons), and even going that far gets “tricky.”

Cataclysm has the Worgen and Goblin Starting areas, MoP has the Pandaren starting area, which isn’t to mention MoP has the bombing of Theramore(relevant to BfA), and other events relevant to WoD that even I’m aware of so that’s probably about as far as they can cut things at present without creating an even bigger mess.

Of course, starting with MoP as the new"first expansion" creates problems for the DK starting point, but it’s always had “significant discontinuity problems,” first jumping from Wrath to “Vanilla” to TBC then back to Wrath again, before becoming Wrath -> Cataclysm -> TBC -> Wrath -> Cataclysm -> and on like it is now.

The Goblin and Worgen starting areas become more interesting and problematic if the Cataclysm is now “in the past” for them as well. The Pandaren starting process actually would likely benefit from such a pruning, so long at MoP didn’t get chopped as well.

But the moment you step into WoD, you have the huge (potential) gold and time sink that were Garrisons(at least until they made players rich). Just the suggestion of removing them from retail is likely to cause screaming.

Reality is that “Retail” has a number of features that are acknowledged mistakes, but as the current game has been built around them, or players are now otherwise reliant upon them in order to play the game over the intervening years… Those things are not going away in retail.

[Drakonov-borean-tundra (Drakonov)]

Classic will probably get me to play a bit of retail here and there, with the subs linked. Overall the two games will be symbiotic in nature. Classic will be a bigger game unless 8.3 is a massive smash hit, but I dont think it can be with how bad the classes feel right now.

[Irisse-maelstrom]

If you saw the groups on the Classic beta that were doing SM Cathedral at 30, they were in the exact same situation . They had particular group setups so they could actually clear the dungeon.

If you mean Asmongold’s video, I’m unconvinced that you really need multiple hunters all putting down frost traps in the same place when one would be sufficient. Also, the group clearly doesn’t have the threat management skills needed for ideal Classic play. I suspect the use of so many hunters is largely to compensate for lack of those threat management skills.

That said, if you need to stack specs as much for equally difficult content as high M+, that still just proves my point, that 5 man spec balance is no better now than it was in Vanilla.

And that’s ignoring the fact that specs are pretty imbalanced even at medium mythic+ in a way they weren’t in Vanilla. Yes, you can time a +10 without a rogue, but it’s much easier if you have the rogue.

[Fixiu-dalaran (Fixiu)]

Why what?

why does the rp value seem lost on the dev team. they asked everyone: what do you want for allied races, come tell us on the forums. so we did. the top 4 were alliance silver covenant high elves and wildhammer dwarves and horde ogres and san’layn.

several polls were taken. it kept coming up the same. what did blizz do? they went for what they think will get the most subs - fox people and robot people hehe

[Galdor-maelstrom (Galdor)]

Also, the group clearly doesn’t have the threat management skills needed for ideal Classic play. I suspect the use of so many hunters is largely to compensate for lack of those threat management skills.

The use of hunters was to mitigate the level difference that causes many spell resists and glancing blows.

[Nyl-sisters-of-elune]

you know what i mean. you just think i’m being unfair to retail.

Here’s what it boils down to. You don’t like retail, you like Classic. Therefore you tried to claim Classic was more of an RPG than retail is and you compared retail to LoL and Fortnite. That was just you trying to crap on people who like retail. And then you went on to say that weapon skill training equivocates to “delayed gratification”. I mean, can you get any more cliche in trying to be passive aggressively snarky about people who like retail? That’s what the discussion is about. And instead of owning your garbage you’re squirming all over the place flailing about trying to find a defense that sticks. You’re not fooling anyone and the only people who are bandwagoning with you are people salty about retail. It’s rather amusing.

[Irisse-maelstrom]

Do you think the average player writes up a background for each character they make?

On RP servers in Vanilla we certainly did. I still do, but maybe the average player doesn’t any more - one more reason why the game is in decline.

[Katerina-mannoroth]

An irrelevant distinction that doesn’t actually substantively address anything. Nice job.

Says you.

Seriously though, people play the game for different reasons. Over time retail has evolved in a direction to optimize certain things, but has also made many unhappy along the way.

There was a population of players who approached WoW in a somewhat similar way to a tabletop RPG. Many of those people unsubbed.

And those are the same ones who are probably the most excited about Classic coming out again. Odd that.

They may not be particularly main stream, but they are rather numerous all the same.

[Fixiu-dalaran (Fixiu)]

I mean, can you get any more cliche in trying to be passive aggressively snarky about people who like retail?

i like retail. just not as much as classic. i explained why i think that is. lol

[Williams-akama (Williams)]

Do you think people will still play retail?

Modern WoW is it’s own biggest enemy.

Classic WoW is a totally different game for a totally different kidn of player.

Because of this, Modern WoW has nothing to really worry about (regarding Classic) because Classic WoW does not provide Whale food.

In the end, Modern WoW will die because it’s players and developers are killing the game.

If you don’t think the players are every bit as involved in it’s demise then you’re mistaken my friend.

[Galdor-maelstrom (Galdor)]

And that’s ignoring the fact that specs are pretty imbalanced even at medium mythic+ in a way they weren’t in Vanilla. Yes, you can time a +10 without a rogue, but it’s much easier if you have the rogue.

Blizzard can’t win with some people.

"Everything is homogenized! No one has anything unique anymore!
“Rogues are overpowered! They have an ability that no other class has!”

[Nyl-sisters-of-elune]

On RP servers in Vanilla we certainly did.

Citation required. Or at least some kind of petition from the millions of players who played in vanilla on RP servers that states you’re authorized to answer for everyone. Thanks! Unless you have that you’re speaking for you and you alone, and thus that “we” up there means 1 person, which doesn’t reflect anything about the average player.

[Fixiu-dalaran (Fixiu)]

[Hegemone-elune (Hegemone)]

Honestly, I didn’t notice. But I was leveling my first toon and most of our raiders had 3 or 4 characters raid ready by the time I got keyed. So I guess that’s why it didn’t seem so bad at the time, because there were always people around working on it. And in Wrath I was among the first ones in our guild to go into Naxx. So I can see having support vs. not could make a difference.

[Sidearm-exodar (Sidearm)]

I said in my post that people play the game for different reasons. Which is fine. If people like retail that is great. If they don’t like Classic, cool. I support both games in reality even if I don’t play retail anymore.

The open world is the stage for a personal story, which is not dictated strictly by the game content, rather guided and enabled by it.

Start a character at level 1 and begin your adventure in that world, along with your allies. Level up, explore dungeons, learn skills, make choices as you gain power. Encounter enemies. The story builds.

Not that you can’t partake via retail, but it’s not that great anymore for that type of play, since the open world has been de-emphasized and gutted.