I was just thinking about the Culling of Stratholme, if Uther actually obeyed and assisted Arthas, would they(including all those that left with Uther) have been able to disrupt and defeat Mal’ganis there, or was would Uther have been a non-determining factor in the battle?
I think the Culling would play out the same with Mal’ganis escaping. Stratholme was already lost and it’s not like Arthas needed much help. The biggest difference would be Uther and Jaina would likely follow Arthas to Northrend and might have stopped him before it was too late.
About seven useful.
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He probably wouldn’t have been able to defeat Mal’ganis there. But had Uther, Jaina, and the others helped Arthas? He might not have started losing faith in the Light. And might have ended up not taking up Frostmourne. As Jaina thinks, they could have also physically restrained Arthas.
Of course, that’s hard to say. Fairly speculative.
Some of the prince’s allies obeyed his order. Many did not. Uther and the paladins under his command were disgusted at the thought of killing innocents. They would take no part. Their disobedience only pushed Arthas to even darker extremes. He turned his back on the other paladins, calling their refusal an act of treason.
As she looked over the ruins, Jaina cursed herself for not doing something to prevent the carnage. She could have used her magic to restrain Arthas, but she didn’t. Her inaction has allowed the prince to commit an act that would haunt him for the rest of his days.
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We saw an “alternate” timeline(it was more of an Emerald Dream nightmare) already where Jaina aided Arthas, suffice to say it ended up creating a “worse” timeline. I assume the same thing would have happened if Uther joined Arthas.
It wasn’t at all an alternate timeline, it was only an Emerald Dream nightmare.
The emerald nightmare was caused by the Old Gods who “sees everything as truth”. Generally speaking, I take that to mean that that particular vision/nightmare was a possibility. If not from a pure ingame lore one then from a devs. creating a story point of view. The rise of the Lich King looks like one of those immutable events in WoW’s history. The only thing different would be the severity/the person who ended up with the crown.
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No, I’m… I’m pretty sure saying the Emerald Nightmare was showing real stuff is a bad idea.
The difference between the Nightmare and an AU is the same as a hypothetical and a parallel.
Generally speaking, you’re wrong. Because their seeing everything as truth doesn’t relate that they are all possibilities.
As she swam in the Shadow, all these visions seemed true. At first.
Slowly she began to see the difference between the Shadow’s memories… the Shadow’s plans… and the Shadow’s desires.
So firstly, some are distinctly just plans or desires. Secondly, the events of the Manga were dreams Jaina had influenced by the Nightmare. Not a Void vision itself.
It isn’t, though. Because we’ve seen alternate timelines where that doesn’t happen. Such as in Twilight of the Aspects. Arguably this is also the premise of The Black Morass quests, wherein the Bronzes say the Legion invades without the Alliance formed without the Horde - sans Scourge mention.
Would the corrupted dream have been revealing the truth though?
I’m of the opinion that leaving arthas to act as he wished was one of the worse outcomes. It would be a hell of a decision to make though.
I’d say the rise of lich king is an immutable part of WoW lore in the sense that without it, Cata would probably end WoW and End Times would have happened.
In Warcraft the difference between the two are razor thin. Ultimately, I think the Lich King would have gotten a new death knight champion, with or without Jaina and Uther going to Northrend.
I dont think anyone close to Arthas would have been willing to commit the one thing that would ultimately be needed to stop Arthas from turning into the Lich King, which was to physically oppose and possibly kill him. And even if they did someone kill him, it would probably have tainted their souls to the point they would be easy pickings for Ner’zhul.
Probably not. Typically nightmares show you your fears. And the entire premise of that Manga chapter seemed about presenting those character’s deep inner fears. We see Moira having Ragnaros’s baby in one part. I don’t think it necessarily has any relation to reality.
Sure. And given these are alternate timelines, these aspects are mutable. That seems the point of the speculation of the thread, what if.
You’re free to your opinion. Just don’t disingeniously present what is only an Emerald Nightmare related dream as an alternate timeline with the fact it is an Emerald Nightmare related dream as an afterthought.
Or you know, it has the classic old god machinations of having half truths. The question is which part is the truth and what part are the lies.
Can you honestly tell me, if Jaina had gone with Arthas to Northrend, and even if they had kill Mal’ganis, would Arthas really stop pursing Frostmore? The weapon was an obsession for Arthas, it was probably too late for Arthas the moment he ignored Medivh at the road.
Didn’t we literally see an alternate timeline where Arthas didn’t become the Lich King in Twilight of the Aspects? I’d hardly call it an inevitability.
Also why couldn’t we have gone there instead of Draenor?
It was implied that Ner’zhul was still there planning and with Kel’thusad being buddy buddy with Blackmoore, he would potentially end up being the new Lich King. As I said, someone was destined to end up Lich King, who and how badly that would fair for the world is the only question.
Of course, the classic half-truth of 'your son is actually the child of a Fire Elemental Lord and wants to cleanse the world in flame.
I honestly think had Uther and Jaina stood with Arthas during the purge and beyond, he probably would have resisted taking up Frostmourne.
Had Jaina gone to Northrend and killed Mal’ganis, I think it likely she would have stopped him from obtaining Frostmourne.
or you know, the truth in that is that Moira’s son will actually end up being honored by the people of Ironforge.
Based on how that scenario played out in the Manga, she wouldn’t be able to stop him sans taking it herself.
Almost like Dagran being Ragnaros’ son was entirely a lie.
Yeah, and that scenario was a nightmare. So I don’t really weigh it in my opinion.
What aren’t you getting about the whole “half truths” thing the Old Gods like spitting up?
Arthas was at a point where Muradin, a good friend who was a second father to him, didnt manage to convince him to back down. Even with Jaina and Uther, I doubt he would have back down when it came to Frostmourne. At that point in the story, Arthas was already lost.
What aren’t you getting about the fact that sometimes they lie? There’s zero truth whatsoever to Dagran being Ragnaros’s lovechild. Old God visions, as well as Emerald Nightmare dreams, have no inherent truth. You’re misrepresenting what the Old Gods sometimes do to support a doubly removed and far flung narrative.
You’re free to your opinion. As I said, had it even still gone so far, I think she would have stopped him, even by force.