Ok how about we bring back determination but if the group uses more than one stack your transmog turns a funny color for the rest of the day?
(Yeah I got nothing, bit I do think there’s too many difficulties for little value add)
I mean…Determination isn’t going to solve the issues on those fights. That’s why I specifically singled them out.
Keep in mind that the entire mechanic of Garalon was “don’t stand in this large circle underneath the boss” and that was enough to basically bring LFR to a screeching halt for days until Blizzard hotfix nerfed it.
I don’t have much faith in the average LFR players ability to handle things like Chains or March of the Penitent.
Edit: Wrong boss.
I mean, it worked on N’zoth where the killer mechanic was “click the giant button”
I can’t even remember what’s different on sludge (is it only chains?) and I haven’t bothered with sure in LFR myself.
I guess this is why I’m not a game designer!
I can’t speak for N’zoth personally, since I never did it on N’zoth, but killing the boss faster kinda does fix the issue albeit in a very inefficient way.
You functionally have twice as much sanity if you kill the boss in half the time.
(even though clicking the button gives you way more, but I’m a Warlock, not a cop).
But ironically killing Denathrius faster is actively detrimental since people wouldn’t clear enough stacks to safely make it to the middle. At our gear level I basically spend the entirety of P1 holding DPS because otherwise we’ll phase it too fast.
Yeah, but you die instantly if you fail the buddy system. So good luck if your partner is off in Africa doing god-knows what LIKE MY PARTNER WAS THIS WEEK. WHY WOULD YOU CAST YOUR STUPID SEED THINGY MAGE WHILE WE ARE TRYING TO MOVE THE BOSS.
your assumption that casuals which is thrown like a four letter word around and often means solo players being on one end of the spectrum is false. Solo/casual players combine to create the majority of all the players and a majority of the paying player base.
What they should do, is offer solo/casual players an actual line of end game progression that is in line with raiders or pvp. The solo/casual players have been the first to offer solutions to this problem, the first to offer concessions to this problem. I’ve seen lots of people simply wanting something that will buff them in world content, and the exclusionists cry about that as well.
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Remove everything above Heroic dungeons and normal raids. If you just had normal dungeons and raids we could all get along like we did back in Vanilla.
Maybe the tryhards that want an E-Sport game can go to an E-Sport game instead of ruining WoW.
Edit - or at the very least, give the elites a REASON to work with casuals instead of giving them reason to shun anyone but themselves. If Blizzard baked in a way for us all to get along, maybe we would all get along. As it stands now, Blizzard just makes reasons for the player base to stratify and hate each other.
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What debate ?? The casuals can turn Blizzard heads around in a week .The elite can moan and groan all expansion long to get nothing done.
The elite won’t exist without casuals, heck without casuals there would just be one server on life support. 
.
If they really want something it they will get it , its simple as that .
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casuals are the paying majority, the so called elite have no game to play for free because most don’t even pay subs without the casuals they like to hate so much
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Yeah but now turn your raid into the average LFR. 3 afk guys, someone auto attacking. A few dead people, and the ones living are still probably not pumping like your current team.
Ha. Yeah. You just gotta find determination still means like 15 people are are gonna be able to pull it off.
While I get your point: This is only true if casuals leave en masse. That’s not going to happen.
But the elite have access to devs, they interview the dev team, and they communicate with them. So who has content designed with them in mind? WF players.
It’s a lot like the labor movement. You need to convince enough casual players the game isn’t worth their time anymore and they should just up and leave and let the other players have the game. If you did that ya, they’d freak out. But you leaving is a you problem, but you convincing a good majority of casual players to leave is their problem.
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True true, the bigger issue there is them actually standing in the beam to clear their stacks.
The bane of LFR’s existence has always been having to stand in things that they have to while simultaneously avoiding the things that they don’t.
In fact, that sentence just gave me flashbacks of doing Lei Shen LFR for that bloody trinket back in MoP.
Nah still Casuals ,Blizzard design process is “can X class kill this mob in Y time” if other classes kills it faster is irrelevant to them and this definitely not favoring min maxers as they will pick the faster one and whine about balance it later for like 20 years
WF players gets 1% of the world of Warcraft content dedicated to them. Heck its not even content its a difficulty setting* of a content.
If you are satisfied with that then that make BLizzard verrrryyy happy. In fact they already are. 
This has happened many times in the past or time metrics went down many times . The recent Torghast buffs that got reverted in 2 days proves it once again meanwhile the #pulltheripcord?? oh wait can;t hear them anymore.
Not to mention that the content creators that are most popular online right now tend to cater to and foster support of elite ideology even if their followers don’t fit the category they support.
I can remember when the pvp community used to have this argument because Blizz clearly favored only end game raiders, then M+ was born and they got into the fray with both pvp and raiders, but I’ve never seen a group treated with such disregard as the solo/casual player base especially since they are the majority of the money base for the game
Someone else said it above, “E Sports” (as someone who actually has played sports I hate this term as there is nothing sporty about it) and content creators have been like throwing gas on a fire when it comes to the current hostile environment towards the solo player or casual player.
There is no question solo/casual players make up a majority and majority of subs, there is no legitimate reason why they should not make progression in favor of this group, if you truly like doing pvp, raiding or M+ for “fun” then you wouldn’t care if someone else gets the same gear doing something else, its purely a grab for power and the desire to hold others down while you do it
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^ this is the only reason elites cry about solo end game progression or paths to gear that don’t involve their modes of play
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The real underlying problem is that some players want their in-game accomplishments to be recognized in some way or form. This is the real cause when a player complains about how easy another player can accomplish a given thing.
A typical complaint from BfA:
“Why should I run this hard content when a moron can run WQ and get rewards on par with mine?”
Really?
Seriously?
Why should a given player’s decision to run content ever hinge on what unrelated activity another player may be doing at that same time? If you like the hard content… run it!
The real issue is that the player who progresses on WQ looks as good as the person who progresses on “hard” content. The elite player doesn’t like that someone could assume the WQer is on par elite player.
The issue can’t actually be the gear reward structure. If it were, we all know the elite player would run WQ AND the hard content for the maximum possibility of a good reward. So… they self-solve that kind of issue.
It must be the comparison… “I’m better than you are.”
They really want others to know it.
Really read the threads that complained about easy rewards for casuals. It all truly boils down to “but I work harder than them, I want recognition”. Dude. Just ignore what the casuals are earning… they never enter YOUR orbit any-damn-way!
At some point I WILL boil this crap down from a TL;DR version…
It just takes me a while on some ideas… that’s all… yeah!
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There’s no debate. It’s normal people VS d-bag neckbeards. Just flush the d-bag neckbeards down the nearest sewer and brighten everyone’s day and make the world a better place.
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Ree-roo ree-roo strawman altert.
Dude, this is not how it works. This is why “your side” loses these arguments, because you don’t even understand the game at all or the mentality of the people who play it, you make up these fake strawmen, attack the strawmen, convince NO ONE of the merit of your belief, and then you simply lose because Ion Hazzikostas (a raider and progression player) is the decider and not you.
People don’t want to play trivial content and don’t want to be forced to play trivial content. I didn’t want LFR nerfed to its current out of some sort of spite… I just don’t want to ever be forced to play that content. And now I don’t have to play it. I can ignore the existence of LFR and have nearly 0 impact on my enjoyment of the game.
Right now I can ignore the Maw for the most part, mostly ignore Torghast at this point (happy with my legendaries), I can ignore world quests, I can ignore callings… I can ignore all of that stuff and just focus on playing the content I enjoy and not feel like I’m being held back in any major way.
If callings awarded top-tier gear for free, I would be obligated to engage in trivial, non-enjoyable content in order to enjoy the content that I want to enjoy.
This is why, if you want gear for solo modes, stop begging for gear and start begging Blizzard for challenging progression solo content that is fun and can be itemized. You need to BEG Blizzard for visions back if you want good solo gear back, because that’s realistically your best shot at getting solo loot back into the game.
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The debate won’t be resolved until casual players have a reasonable progression path without hitting a wall early in an expansion, and elite players understand that casual players also deserve gear (even if it’s not as good as their gear).
Whoa whoa whoa man. I’ll read the rest of your post, but you are making wild assumptions about my motivation.
I just want to understand both sides.