How to bring Subtlety more in-line

Classes Rogue
1

I want to just start this off by saying subtlety is my favourite rogue spec, ive always enjoyed the playstyle and the changes from BfA to SL made it much my enjoyable by removing the more punishing aspects of the spec.

Subtlety is in a perfectly adequate spot dps wise, but it does have some issues that i think need to be addressed sooner rather than later to help the specs longevity. In my mind subtlety is a single target hero, it isnt designed to have good cleave or AoE (and i dont want cleave or AoE!), it is designed to have punchy single target damage with an emphasis on priority target/funnel damage (the funnel damage is a shell of its former self with the removal of Shuriken Combo). In its current state the single target damage just isnt quite there, at this time classes that can also do drastically more AoE or cleave are also outperforming us on single target, which i dont think should be the case, currently i am 222 ilvl and sim for just about 6.1k if i am pure single target, but the Balance druid in my guild (who is the same item level) sims for 6.5k on pure single target, but even comparing to the other rogue specs i think the single target of outlaw and subtlety is way to close considering outlaw also brings heeping amounts of raw AoE.

Im not asking for miracles or crazy buffs, just something that shows Subtlety’s meant to be strengths. A few ways this could be addressed is by buffing the damage of backstab, which right now really doesnt feel impactful besides the fact that it generates combo points, alternatively you could buff the mastery values, currently Subtlety scales really poorly with mastery (not as bad as some classes), but for a passive that is suppose to give your finishers more damage, you think it would be worth more to a spec that kinda functions around finishers. Even a flat buff to the damage of eviscerate would be welcome.

Its no secret that during the last months of the beta tuning rogues in general, but subtlety more so than the other specs got hit pretty hard by the nerf bat, nerfing legendary effects, conduits and covenant abilities (Necrolord to the point where its a shell of what is use to be on the beta.) the yoyoing of Akaaris soul fragment on the beta was concerning to watch at the time, and the conduit nerfing while needed was maybe a little heavy handed. One thing that does concern me going forward into the expansion is that Blizzard are going to give Subtlety attention to its weaker points, like its AoE and cleave, potentially adding legendary effects or conduits that target those areas, but i really hope that they dont, Subtlety has never been a cleave or AoE spec, it has always been mainly single target focused.

Finally, while we are on the subject, lets address some of Subtletys less than stellar talent options, Weapon master is crushing the top row, Premeditation while good in theory just doesnt contribute enough to make it a worth while pick (many still default to WM for mythic +) and Gloomblade is almost entirely useless, it doesnt do more damage than backstab and the only benefit is that it can apply find weakness without having to be behind the target… in its current state it wont ever see play. While Nightstalker might become more competitive as we get more stats, subterfuge is really floundering. Dark shadows in its current state will never be picked unless for some reason you only need burst at a very specific point of a fight, and i doubt it is an issue that can be fixed by just increasing the raw damage of Dark Shadows, currently Enveloping shadows feels like it should be baseline, and Alacrity i feel has no place in the Subtlety talent tree, lastly our final row of talents is just very disappointing for your last “Powerful pick” Master of shadows feels like its a passive the spec should just have, secret techniques has niche AoE value and shuriken tornado is pointless especially when its on the same row as a decent AoE choice, comparing these to some other classes talents really starts to show where subtlety is losing a lot of its value, Fire mage with Kindling or Unholy DK with Army of the Damned just to name a few.

To summerize before this becomes far to rambly, with outlaw doing competitive single target, and assassination finally getting brought up to speed for single target/ cleave, i really dont want Subtlety to be left in obscurity for another expansion. so please dont forget that Subtlety exists outside of PvP, it doesnt need crazy changes or reworking, it just needs a little push, for such a fun class it deserves love from blizzard.

3 Likes
2

I agree. It’s not just sub but all rogue specs need to be brought up some due to the fact that rogues bring zero in the utility aspect and middle of the pack damage is demoralizing.

Sin is also looking to be played more due to the fact that while it’s 1-2% behinds in it suffers less from mechanics which is more beneficial in a mythic progression type scenario in a melee unfriendly tier.

3 Likes
3

Its also part that its Cleave is considerably better than Sub which is next to none.

Which is particularly useful in fights like Huntsman and General

They should make Smoke Bomb baseline again, thats how you bring the raid utility back to Rogues.

4

I agree, right now the meta really feels like its being dominated by what utility a class brings, and the melee unfriendliness really doesnt help, right now it seems hard to get past the raid arguement of “why bring x melee when you can bring a Unholy DK?” and the “why bring melee when range can just do it better?”. so being a class/spec that is around the average to below average dps mark while also not bringing anything outside of damage doesnt feel good.

5

Also when running Zoldyk those execute phases are just insane damage. I’m only running 211 at the moment 213 MH and 203 OB with 190 Zoldyk legs and the execute phases are strong.

Sub will also drop off immensely during mechanics due to not having DP/garrote doing damage alongside rupture.

6

Yep. My guild went from running one DK to three due to their strengths.

I honestly feel if I wasn’t an established member of the team I’d probably be sat.

1 Like
7

this is legit my guild as well, less direct DK, but lots of people have switched to like MM, Boomie, Mage. and my GM has asked previously about rerolled, but i told him that rogue has to be great at some point of the expac, thats just how we work XD

8

Well I did run mage for BFA since my first two max chars in BC were mage and rogue so those tend to be the two I play the most.

I personally don’t want to play catch up even more than I do now.

9

Yes sub rogue needs a nudge for sure against some of the other classes dominating right now. Rogue in general has had a mediocre tier but that’s not exactly unprecedented for expansion launches.

Unlike BfA, Sub is in a really good playable state and is positioned well for the rest of the expansion. We just have to hope that with the coming double legendaries and tier sets we can pull ahead.

I have no doubt that some of the big launch offenders like fire mage, and unholy DK are going to get tuning adjustments.

The only big thing I’m worried about it is the utility aspect which rogue lacks. We either need damage or some group buff to bring us in line…we’ll see what gets cooked up.

1 Like
10

Smoke Bomb

11

I’d rather have better damage honestly. Smoke bomb would be nice but as a pure class smoke bomb wouldn’t be enough imo

1 Like
12

Better than nothing, besides the ability to force ranged enemies into melee is really good, on top of the defense buff.

13

Yeah but then we have dps lower than a DK with a similar raid cd.

14

But thats only Magical dmg.

But yeah both Sub and Sin need more dmg.

15

Physical damage will be in melee range a vast majority of the time anyways.

The random things you would need to deal with most likely would be magical.

Amz is also an absorb. Bomb is just a los so aoe would still hit the raid.

16

It has a defense buff of 10% i think.

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Adding utility would be a quicker fix, but it would more so be a bandaid rather than addressing the actual issue, which right now is that a handful of classes are fitting to many roles, some classes that usually have fit something like an AoE or multi target king (Balance druid / Unholy Death Knight) are now also crushing raw single target. other classes that have usually been single target /cleave gods (Like Fire mage) now also crush aoe, select amount of classes over performing it makes it hard for any other classes to shine

2 Likes
18

Sub is currently the bottom dps in terms of mythic raiding if you sort the data for the last week to account for the recent buffs to other specs. Not really sure why you think sub is well positioned considering it has one niche right now and that’s single target where it is still heavily outperformed by other specs that cover all dps situations.

19

I hope Blizz pulls an ‘Arms Warr fix’ and buffs damage for pve and doesn’t cancel it in pvp muahaha

20

Its fine in the sense that it isnt sub from last expansion past uldir. you can play it and still do average damage, in some instances it can actually do quite well. thats not me saying it doesnt need help, it does. but you arent trolling as hard as you would be last expansion by trying to play sub