You’ve put what I’ve been trying to get across when I say the meta is going to shift, and the problem will still exist, even with the proposed changes in much more clear terms than I was able to. I got hung up on the idea of tryhards using engineering items/consumables, but this scenario is much more likely tbh.
I’d imagine queues would get very long indeed if alliance no longer felt any of the bgs was worth the time investment.
I don’t think that’s true. A lot of Horde players are just as disappointed about the Alliance turnout.
Consider how the situation would stand for many horde players if xrealm battlegrounds hadn’t been implemented. On the servers with what I can only assume are the most fervent pvp enthusiasts, there legitimately wouldn’t be any battleground instances at all, because there’s literally almost no alliance playing on them post phase 2.
Short of saying, “tough luck, better transfer servers,” blizzard went for the xrealm option which I can’t honestly look down upon as a result.
But that has also had an impact on how it feels to play the game. Premades, being a social solution to winning a battleground, also had a social answer before xrealm was implemented.
You could alert people to the fact that a battleground was locked down because of a premade, and people would either stop queuing for that battleground, or otherwise all of the old former warlord players would come out of retirement, and give those young whippersnappers the what for so that everyone could play again.
Or you could just get a premade together and compete with them. There isn’t a social solution to premades in a post-xrealm world if you would, otherwise, simply choose to play in pugs.
Here, I think, logic is stacked against you. Premades are like a blitzkrieg tank column. There’s an imbalance of power there, which leads to places on the front where there are no tanks at all, because it wouldn’t be possible to concentrate that much fire power in one place without leaving other areas without any armored support at all.
So yes, premades win every time, but that also implies that the skilled and geared players who are playing in premades aren’t helping the other players on their faction who are playing the game, at this point, without their assistance.
A 3 player maximum for solo/social queue would still allow, “premades” in effect well within that system, they would just be smaller, more numerous, and less impactful on the outcome of the match. That isn’t to say that they would have no impact at all.
Horde have legit no right to comment on whats fair while this version of AV is in the game
I would agree – but you also have to remember that some of the best alliance PvP players won’t even step foot in AV because “the hph” from rickrolling pugs in AB/WSG is a more efficient use of their time.
I still think that there isn’t any possible harm to be done by moving the opening engagement further south, but when premades are running rampant in ab/wsg, AV is the only place a solo queue player can get any honor at all.
Most pre v pug games in ab/wsg result in >3 hk, 0 caps, 0 resources.
There’s no point to playing ab/wsg at all, so many horde players who’d rather be playing those battlegrounds for reputation are forced to play AV instead. Alliance teams are riddled with players that aren’t even at the level cap yet, or who are still trying to reach exalted with sp.
Better use of time to hop in queue for AV and run a dungeon to keep yourself awake, because at least AV represents some semblance of progress.
The alliance may not accomplish much in reference to bonus honor in that battleground, but at least they can get some honor there from killing players…
If only they’d spoken up before server balance was ruined… or after… or before AV turned into a 100% win rate with 2 hour queue fest and no enjoyment for anyone… or after.
I really would love to meet these Horde players- because every time I get told about this so called ‘lot of Horde’ I really have to wonder where they’ve been all this time.
Must be hiding behind the ‘a lot of Horde’ that are actually vocal, and spend their time looking at balance problems and yelling ‘quit or reroll’ as the solution.
Great solution btw, worked wonders at rocketing your queues up.
Which would be well deserved, and a very Vanilla consequence for stacking a faction.
I actually find it unfortunate that HS Horde have the same queues as Stalagg Horde, that’s a failure in game design Blizz implemented that guaranteed server imbalance would be this bad.
Instead, the outnumbered faction got told ‘tough luck, go xfer’- which in most cases was Alliance. But naturally, that’s fine- better Alliance get shafted by Horde’s need to stack servers than Horde getting consequences for deciding to stack servers.
On my server, it was nothing but premades on one faction- win rates were very one sided due to it, Blizz did nothing. And they’ll do nothing about them now.
Alliance premades don’t want to pug, I know quite a few of them because I play with a lot of them- they don’t want to carry lazy bads to victory, they don’t want to do 6v8 because their side has 4 AFKers and the Horde only has 2.
The HC pvp scene Alliance side made it through phase 2 by banding together- which ironically was what Horde kept telling us to do the entire time they were sitting on top of their mountain of superior numbers gloating, and promising that when it came to even numbers BGs, Horde would still win everything because they were just better players.
Well, Alliance banded together- if you forcibly split that, they aren’t going to keep playing with pugs, they’re going to stop playing, because pugs are not enjoyable to them. Frankly Alliance pugs aren’t enjoyable to anyone.
Again-
Surely you can realize that skilled, coordinated, dedicated players do not want to carry lazy, bad, afk pugs? Why would trying to force them to work, we’ve already seen what happens when you try that in AV- it destroys the BG.
Is that really the pvp experience Horde craves? Just hopping into BGs to collect your honour welfare against a bunch of AFKers? Cuz that’s what AV is, and from how happy Horde seem to be about AV it really does seem Horde just don’t want to be challenged, ever, in anything.
The amount of honor alliance get from a losing AV is trivial even with a large number of HK’s. It’s better honor to spam WSG/AB and quick lose to premades while trying to get a pug vs pug match, not to mention that even quick losing to premades is more entertaining than playing AV with horde using their current strat.
I’m with you on that to be honest…
I’d have preferred the players who completely ruined the game for others in phase 2 reaped the reward they’d sewn by not having an enemy faction to battleground with in subsequent weeks.
I’d be riding high with the best queue times in the game, most likely, because I play the minority faction on my server.
But what we all know is that they just want a 100% winrate against any pug, rather than having to legitimately compete for honor in a game designed around that premise.
The AFK reporting system is there for a reason.
Being a high rank player, comes with it, some semblance of responsibility to do that, though. In the original game, that was the way it was, anyway.
Look, there were times prior to xrealm bg’s when there weren’t any battleground instances up at all. That might’ve been because one side was sick of losing, or couldn’t break the enemy premade team, and so they just boycotted queuing collectively.
The people who were trying to rank, in this case, had to hop in world and local defense channels and go to where pvp was happening in order to continue advancing through the PvP system.
Or camp a dungeon/raid entrance to harry the players who were trying to enter it, and that could develop into something larger if players from the other faction got wind of what was happening.
“carrying the lazy bads” as you call it, was your job as a high ranking player – and there could be far fewer of those at any one given time when the server populations and pvp bracket sizes were much smaller.
This is a side-effect of the problem that I’m trying to fix. If we could join AB/WSG without knowing full well we were about to get completely demolished by between 10-15 helmets (which legitimately wasn’t possible when vanilla was live), then we’d probably queue for the other battlegrounds.
I find this hard to believe.
The alliance, at least, accomplish something with their time in AV. I’m not saying that it isn’t broken, because it is – in many cases you guys don’t breach the defensive choke at IB, and infrequently are able to even kill lieutenants because there’s always a large concentration of horde threatening SHGY.
But at least you get some kills, at the very least. Pre v pug ab/wsg is literally 0 hk 0 honor. You get nothing.
As a warrior, i’m out here getting wrecked by the mage who only knows how to press arcane explosion who I can’t damage because he’s bopped and my team doesn’t have a single dispeller.
And Horde wanted easy honour during phase two- with raid groups stomping parties trying to reach Strat/BRM all day every day. With second account Alliance spies sitting at every FP and portal room to keep tabs on flagged players so that no matter where Alliance went, immediately on landing there they’d be swarmed and camped.
As long as AV is a 100% win rate for Horde, kinda don’t feel like there’s anything wrong with any Alliance that want a 100% win rate in WSG/AB. At least in their case they have to work for it, in AV Horde just show up and get showered with rep and honour.
Also- the AFK system is pointless, we had a guy so well known for 24/7 botting on our server that everyone was reporting him and people from other servers were making alts here to tell us about him AFK botting.
Guess what Blizz did- that’s right, they let him do it all the way to rank 14. Absolutely toothless, and everyone Alliance side knows it.
And you lost me- what?
No really, what? Since when?
First of all, in Vanilla my server had premades, they stomped , they got to high ranks faster than everyone else, and they definitely weren’t helping the AFKers and pugs.
Second of all- since when is it anyone’s duty to work for a leeches’ rewards?
And if we could queue into fair, balanced matches in AV, we still would be doing that- oh, and look at that, we actually had fairly even win rates in AV for a long time- and even when losing, both sides got rep and honour out of it. And while premades were in AV, fewer premades were in WSG/AB, so it was doing well too.
Oh wasn’t that a grand old time when all the BGs saw competitive pvp, and a mix of pugs and premades, and even win rates.
Whatever happened to those days?
Oh right- horde decided they hated that, let Blizz know with a month long tantrum that they hated that- and Blizz being the dutiful Horde puppet they are made changes.
The problem is they changed an unfair mechanic- Alliance being able to make premades more easily in AV due to Horde stacking the faction (a problem which I may note is one the Horde caused themselves). But they didn’t change the other unfair mechanic in AV- the map itself being massively imbalanced in Horde’s favour.
The entire time that was happening by the way, Horde was promising that Alliance premades would get destroyed in AB/WSG- whatever happened to that? Don’t see Alliance complaining about the situation when it’s an even map that both sides can premade in.
That isn’t true at all. People wanted to get exalted with WSG in the early weeks of its release, and I personally encountered frequent premades there even when AV premades were still possible.
If you’re counting the instances you abandoned with 15 players in them, which were free wins for horde, perhaps they were even.
Every game stacked with 40 helmets, though, was a 6 minute loss guaranteed and the contest between teams wasn’t legitimate.
The gameplay sucked on both fronts. No, AV premades are not the answer to the problem.
This is exactly what I’m trying to accomplish – and premades are obviously the problem preventing it on all fronts. It’s the people who “don’t want to carry the bads and afkers” and “want to get carried instead of pulling their own weight” that are causing the problem.
If we can get them to abandon their self righteous crusades of entitlement to free honor, we can have a competitive and fair game to play.
The system we have now is “patchy,” because players are putting all their eggs in 1 basket. The system I propose puts fewer eggs in more baskets, and as a result more baskets are full, and/or contain something, rather than having several baskets which are far too heavy to lift and a bunch of empty ones.
At the same time, putting groups of 7 or more players into separate queues means that their queue times are likely to drop significantly, because there’ essentially not having to wait behind large groups of solo queued players prior to getting an instance.
They’re given a different priority simply by having joined the queue as a group. Legitimately, nobody is losing out, here; and everyone wins.
The only time a group of players might choose not to premade is if the premade queue is bogged down by an over abundance of grouped players waiting for a game – in which case, they would be better served, as far as hph efficiency is concerned, to queue with a different number of players; which would be come evident after you hit the button and saw what your estimated wait time looked like as a result of queuing with whatever number of players in your party or raid.
I think that goes back to Horde doing all they possibly could- and being very loudly proud of it mind you- to get players to ‘reroll or quit’ during phase two. Guess who was quitting, because it wasn’t the premade HC Alliance that had coordinated groups that were concerned with it.
Your faction works that hard to remove casual, pug quality players from the Alliance for months (this did start before phase 2 btw, sure p2 made it worse but it was bad starting week one with a hundred Horde sitting in front of Scarlet Monastery waiting for Alliance parties to stomp on), and guess what happens when you remove all the pug quality players.
Well… not much to guess really- you remove the pug quality players, and now pugs are mostly AFKers or those that don’t care about pvping well, which those that do want to pvp well refuse to associate with.
That’s Blizz’s fault- they even noted that it was a bug that BGs were starting short in their patch notes. If games waited until there were 30, 35, 40 players before the gates opened then this wouldn’t have been an issue.
And every AV now is a one hour turtle fest where Alliance doesn’t even pass SHGY and ends up with minimal to no honour. Wow, what an improvement.
And how are you going to do that exactly? I’m telling you with the same tone I told people what would happen to Horde queues due to phase 2, what removing casuals would do to Alliance premade frequency, and what AV changes would do both to Alliance win rates and moving premades over to WSG/AB. All things I was right on, all things which Horde now try to pretend they never wanted despite months of them being just as loud on the forums as they are about premades.
If you remove premades from WSG/AB, if you try to force Alliance pvpers to carry AFKers and bads- they will stop doing BGs, just like they did with AV.
Maybe you don’t like that mentality, personally I agree in not wanting to carry people- but even if you’re right in it being a bad mentality to have, it’s the mentality that Alliance pvpers do have, and none of them want to be forced into bad pugs that constantly lose to Horde.
You’re not going to change minds- frankly with Horde having 100% AV win rates, numbers dominance on almost every pvp server, and usually world boss control too- most Alliance are going to look at Horde calling Alliance ‘entitled’ for wanting to have just two places, just WSG/AB where they can have a chance of winning and be frankly disgusted at how entitled Horde has become.
You can’t make a generalization like this and propose it accurate. Not every player who plays horde behaves in this way, and while there are inevitably bad eggs on both factions, you’re making an unfair assumption.
This is absolutely not true as somebody who plays pugs frequently.
No, dude. This was the fault of the Alliance players making AV premades, because they weren’t accepting the queue into the instance because it wasn’t the right one.
Conversely, if Alliance weren’t abusing the matchmaking system to do something that the game made impossible, this never would’ve happened anyway. You can’t pretend that the alliance who abused that particular game mechanic weren’t to blame for that happening to the players who simply wanted to queue for the battleground legitimately.
It’s not the greatest alternative, but the players who prefer pugstomping in ab/wsg aren’t helping the problem by “not helping the bads and afkers” who are legitimately trying to play AV in subsequent weeks. These players got exalted illigitimately by premading and glitch pulling drek and then never queued for AV again, because match scouting and queue dodging in wsg was better honor and provided rep as an additional bonus.
Look, I didn’t have anything to do with whatever happened in phase 2, and it doesn’t seem relevant to the problem that we’re having with premades and pugs. It literally has no bearing on the issue at hand.
Alliance pugs are suffering at the hands of premades just as much as horde pugs are suffering at the hands of alliance premades. There isn’t a faction line to draw, because faction don’t have a horse in this race.
And yet, I’m not going to agree to your right to be carried.
shrug
Every player, if they want rank, should be required to pull their own weight on a fair playing field. That’s the game we should all be playing.
Look, I get what you’re saying? I included it in my OP.
If WSG and AB are being modified toward the providence of fairness as a result of changes to the matchmaking system, AV should also be included in our calculations as a result of where fairness currently stands in that battleground.
While removing WSG/AB premades as the end-all most-efficient way to accomplish the honor grind will help the alliance win-rate in AV by attracting more ranking players, I think delaying the Horde gate is a healthy change to help the alliance overcome the terrain disadvantage that they seem to be at in that space.
If the opening engagement happened closer to IB rather than SH, the horde would be the ones bottled up there, and the situation would be almost entirely reversed unless the horde team could legitimately out-play and push back the Alliance team until they were all the way back at SHGY.
It would give the alliance more opportunity to capture SF, at the very least; which would reduce the runback time and result in more offensive pressure.
Like, that wasn’t just a baseless “this will fix AV” that I provided without any measure of thought or strategic calculation – delaying the horde gate would result in dramatic changes to the gameplay in AV, and I sincerely think it’ll be healthy for the game.
I don’t like winning every AV uncontested – it’s boring, it feels exactly the same every time, and it doesn’t fulfill my desire for a legitimate contest.
I genuinely miss the knock-out drag-out turtle games we used to inflict upon the the premades we griefed into actually playing us – even when we lost. Losing is an integral part of AV, and sometimes those games are even more fun than the ones we win.
If that situation never occurs because other elements of the game are inhibiting it, I would see those inhibitions removed, because it improves the overall health and variety of the gameplay meta.
The answer is not allow alliance premades in AV because the strategies and glitch pulls Alliance premades were abusing in order to accomplish sub 7 minute victories there wasn’t an accurate representation of the substantial objective oriented gameplay vanilla enthusiasts wanted or expected when that battleground was finally implemented as playable content.
You didn’t read half of what I said did you? It has everything to do with both the composition of Alliance players, and their attitude towards pvp.
WPVP is stacked against Alliance on most servers. AV is obviously stacked against Alliance, and AB/WSG pugs are probably stacked too. So if everything but AB/WSG premades are stacked against them- of course they’re going to to stick to the one thing that’s competitive and possible to win.
If you make it so Alliance can’t win at any pvp, they’re going to straight up stop pvping, and that’s the end of the story, and we know this because both in Classic and retail, when win rates rocket in one direction it kills participation every single time.
Actually it is. As it stands- Horde premades, Horde in wpvp, Horde in AV have the advantage in all things pvp, and if Horde pugs really are better than Alliance pugs which is what everyone seems to say- then even Horde pugs have the advantage.
If things stay as is, with Alliance premades being dominant in WSG/AB- that leaves Horde with still a lot of pvp where they’re always winning.
If things however change and you get rid of WSG/AB premades for Alliance, that leaves Alliance with absolutely no enjoyable pvp anywhere. Which means, as I’ve said multiple times now- Alliance stops pvping. Which means Horde stops pvping.
You realize that you are effectively the only vocal Horde willing to say this- and from what Blizz has done so far, not a single Alliance thinks Blizz would actually try to do anything about AV.
Honestly, even if the map was balanced and they changed both the IBGY choke point and the Horde cave- it’s just too late, you can’t wait until it’s completely dead to try to fix it you have to do so while it still has life.
Instead, Blizz looked at AV when it still had life, quite a bit actually for as much as people complained about AV it had hundreds of instances going showing people were still fine with doing it- and they killed it at Horde’s urging.
Horde hasn’t been shafted on changes like Alliance has- every time Blizz does something, like free xfers that destroyed Stalagg/Skeram, or the AV changes, Alliance comes out of it battered and Horde comes out of it cheering and joyful.
That doesn’t strike you as odd, that Horde is always happy with changes, is perfectly fine with things that are massively imbalanced- and Blizz is too?
Cuz it sure doesn’t paint a picture that’d make any Alliance think ‘oh maybe this time Blizz will actually do something to improve the game for us’.
Well, on that note- Blizz didn’t delay gate opening, but they did move the cave back in TBC because they admitted the map was not balanced properly.
Problem is- that was TBC, so they aren’t going to do anything here, and Horde are convinced that getting to SHGY at the same time Alliance does is totally more fair than meeting square in the middle of the map.
Maybe not- but neither was fixing imbalances that benefited Alliance, while leaving those that benefit Horde untouched.
Again, it’s nice that you recognize this as an issue- but that makes you an outlier in the Horde, and Blizz really does not care.
Blizz took a look at phase 2, saw that Alliance pvpers were already scarce, saw that Horde were complaining a lot, and saw a BG that was active, had moderate queues for Horde and had wins and losses on both sides.
And hit it with a nuclear strike.
And that’s what the problem is. Sure, it would be great if Blizz put a lot of attention into fixing all the major pvp issues that have resulted in Alliance pvpers becoming endangered species- but they took a look at Alliance complaints about constant camping, and rewarded Horde campers by increasing honour gains for camping from 4 kills to 10.
They took a look at queues and blasted Alliance right out of AV.
And if they hit the Alliance premades, they’re not doing it with care and precision, they’re nuking it from orbit and it will kill pvp in this game for everyone.
First of all and on the contrary, we’re not getting rid of premades at all. We’re simply eliminating their ability to farm pugs for honor.
Second of all, since pugs will only face pugs, Alliance queue rates are far more likely to increase rather than decrease because being in a premade in order to be successful is no longer an inherent requirement.
Every single battleground instance that ensues will be more fair and more fun for every single player who joins one.
Does faction imbalance suddenly mean that horde players get 12 players in WSG when alliance only gets 10? No. Instanced PvP is entirely removed from WPvP and server population statistics, and so it doesn’t have any relevance to the conversation.
Alliance premades are not dominant in WSG/AB.
Premades In general are what’s dominating. Stop bringing faction into this, when it isn’t relevant to the conversation. In your next post, refrain from typing the words “Alliance” or “Horde” at all, and you’ll be on the right track.
And yet, without having to change the terrain of the map from the 1.12 version, the same effect can be achieved by giving the alliance more time to run south prior to the opening engagement.
The horde players who have epic mounts are literally passing Balinda’s bunker when they encounter the first Alliance players who have barely passed the SH flag by that point. We’re literally standing at your graveyard flag when the match begins, which means the game provided us with access to SF GY by default.
That’s obviously broken.
The only people with any right to complain are the people who only enjoy the game for the purposes of stomping pugs, and those players don’t rightly deserve any say in the matter because they’re the ones damaging the gameplay’s integrity.
And the integrity of the PvP system in general. Yes, you’re still likely to get more honor in premades, in this case, as a result of shorter queues; but the difference is that you’re not getting more honor because you stomped on more pugs.
You got more honor because you competed on a level playing field and succeeded as a team at completing objectives.
Your ability as a premade to stomp more pugs, by number, in reference to a different premade from your faction, isn’t an appropriate way to gauge success in an effort based system, because pre v pug is inherently unfair due to the circumstances with which these disparate types of teams are constructed, and infrequently because of the quality of the individual players within them as a general trend.
Please make pre-mades fight eachother. We don’t want this sh*t in classic.
Alliance solo queue players will see their queue times increase as a byproduct of more people queuing into that system and the randomization buffer zone to prevent the faction with instant queues from attempting to circumvent the rules upon which that system was built to continue queuing into it with a full team to vicitimize the players within it – there is no need to establish that same buffer zone in the premade portion of the queue system.
As a result, yes. Longer queues for Alliance pugs, but fairer games at the other end. What good is a fast queue into a 0 honor pug v pre? None. It’s a waste of your time anyway.
Yet somehow Horde can’t form premades because… well actually that one’s never been adequately explained. Supposedly it’s true, since everyone’s complaining about Alliance premades, and nobody talks about Horde ones. I assume there’s just not enough Alliance puggers to really make noise on it.
According to Horde, Horde pugs always beat Alliance pugs, so ultimately you’re going to end up with Horde pug queues rocketing up.
This will have the opposite intended effect- Alliance will still do nothing but premade, but rather than Horde getting matched against premades and getting owned- they will just sit in pug queues forever like AV. If anything, this ironically will force Horde to premade not to win, but to pvp at all.
Kinda don’t feel bad about farming pugs for honour- after Horde raids farmed Alliance parties trying to reach BRM, and then Horde in AV farmed Alliance AFKers for honour. In all cases, it’s basically effortless honour farming, except at least for premades we get a mix of easy matches and hard matches… Horde just got ez mode in everything else with no challenges.
I didn’t see Horde complaining about the ez honour when it benefits them- heck other than you none of them can even admit AV being so one sided is a problem.
No, but it does mean that pvp servers have been drained of casuals, which in turn means most Alliance pvpers are going to premade because the types that pug were systematically removed from the game by a mix of Horde camping and Blizz nuking balance.
Oh yeah, let’s just make sweeping changes to pvp without considering how it’ll effect faction balance- oh wait, we’ve already done that, multiple times. How did that work out again?
Yeah, I don’t think so- the problem is that too much has already been done without caring how it’d effect balance to the point that balance is literally impossible.
But, as bad as balance is now- it can get worse, and for some reason I don’t want that.
I have to talk about how it affects factions differently, because it literally affects factions differently. Again- Horde are overwhelmingly pleased by the changes, by utter wpvp control and 100% AV win rates. Alliance are not- and if every time Blizz makes changes it shafts Alliance and pleases Horde, then factions kind of become an important talking point for further changes.
Not really- oh, it’ll help to meet in the middle for sure. But the cave still grants a huge advantage at IBGY.
Having reinforcements to IBGY 20 seconds away spawning 20 at a time for Horde is a pretty significant advantage over SHGY which is almost 40 seconds away, and we spawn 10 at a time from SPGY.
Move the cave back and make it so Horde spawn at FWGY- well FW is still closer to IB than SH is to SP, but it is better than having a cave that is basically right beside it.
It would take a lot of changes to actually balance the map- frankly I’d prefer to go with the second option of just flipping start points, so Alliance get the Horde side and Horde the Alliance side. If that had happened back when people were still playing AV it might have kept the BG alive.
Really? PvP system integrity? Let’s go on a tangent for just a second here.
The Vanilla pvp system is one of the worst pvp systems ever thought of. It heavily rewards time, severely punishes anyone that takes a break during what is a grind of multiple months often taking 100+ hours a week, that was rife with collusion, win trading, exploiting, afking and botting even back in Vanilla.
This game’s pvp system has no integrity to ruin.
Then AV should give Horde no honour at all, because a 100% win rate BG means you are being handed free honour.
There’s a reason that in later versions of the game, Blizz did try to separate pugs and premades, with arena/rbg. But they also put the best gear from pvp behind arena/rbg premades.
Vanilla’s the only time in the game’s history where pugs can get bis pvp gear- but part of that is you have to compete against premades for it. If they separate pugs and premades, they have to separate rewards too.
Wow, I have not heard that one before- oh wait, it’s literally the exact same thing Horde said about AV changes before they happened. ‘Without premades ruining the game, more Alliance pugs will play and they’ll win more!’
I wonder what’ll happen this time!
Then your opinion literally doesn’t matter to me.
Have you ever tried to retake IBGY from the position at the Horde cave?
It’s not exactly a pleasant experience, and if most of the Alliance team is stacked on the flag, it’s infrequent that the graveyard can be retaken.
Furthermore, the cave location removes most player obstacles that would otherwise be in the way between the Alliance offensive front and the spawn point at FW, which is absolutely not the case at SP; and capturing that point is frequently the most difficult part of Horde achieving victory in AV.
If you’re looking for perfection, I’m afraid I can’t help you; but can make things better, if you’ll let me.
It’s flawed, yes. Because there aren’t barriers in the way of players abusing other systems in the game in order to be successful within its’ confines, there’s a lot of corruption of that system. You’re absolutely right.
I’m here trying to make a difference on that front for the benefit of everyone who plays the game, and you’re telling me that what I’ve proposed isn’t fair to the Alliance because they like facing horde premades in pugs.
That’s the conversation we’re having at this point.
I agree.
shrug
Something needs to be done about AV. I have proposed changes that would benefit the situation there, as such, I’m still confused why you’re working against me.
Blizz tried to do it during vanilla after the implementation of xrealm battlegrounds because people complained about it then, too.
At the end of the day you’re not competing against premades, though. You’re competing against every player who PvPs on your server. That’s resulted in a “meta” which isn’t about playing the game at all, it’s just about achieving the highest possible Hph efficiency.
Premades aren’t competing with pugs, premades are competing against the players on their server’s pvp ladders.
The vanilla PvP system is supposed to reward an individual player’s effort in PvP – which is why it ranks individual players and not teams. The option is provided for a single player to join the queue without a team to compete on an individual basis in objective oriented PvP, and that player’s individual honor gain is different based on his/her performance then every other player within that instance.
The PvP system is an individual enterprise. The presence of premades in the same queue as pugs results in a socially constructed inequity built upon the premise of forming teams.
What you’re saying is that excluding this player or excluding that player and only privileging your friends is the correct way to rank in vanilla – and that doesn’t seem appropriate in a system which was designed around the premise of rewarding an individual’s time and effort.
It isn’t legitimately fair to hinder the progress of one player simply because he isn’t friends with other players who consider themselves more important or more deserving than he is. The system of social exclusion damages the integrity of the gameplay because pug v pre is infrequently fair as a result of premade teams not playing by the same rules the pug players did regarding how their team was chosen.
Well at least now you understand why nobody on the Alliance cares about the opinions of the ez mode, entitled Hordies that get everything handed to them except WSG/AB- but want that made ez mode too.
Yet due to reinforcement speed and the map design, it’s considerably easier than taking back SHGY. And if Alliance loses SHGY without a forward base, they lose the game since it’s extremely easy to use the SHGY choke to prevent Alliance from going on offense.
IBGY’s choke is on the field of strife side though, so while it’s easy to defend for Horde, it’s also easy for Horde to just go past it if lost.
Except if you’re at SHGY and Alliance hasn’t taken anything, Alliance won’t take anything and you’ve already won. Having the only defensible positions that deep into Alliance territory doesn’t give Alliance a chance to win- it just makes a loss that much longer and more painful.
I have never seen Alliance win a match when Horde takes SHGY and Alliance doesn’t have IB or SF hard capped- but I’ve seen many games where Horde takes SH well after IB and still wins or at least gets good honour out of it.
If you take SHGY, you win- if Alliance doesn’t have SF/IB by the time they lose SH, they lose.
Both factions enjoy rolling pugs, and frankly if we’re going to fix the one place where Alliance and Horde does it- AB/WSG- then we also have to in fairness fix AV and fix wpvp, where on a massive scale Horde does it.
The problem is- nobody honestly believes Blizz will actually do that. What would happen is Blizz would shaft Alliance on WSG/AB premades, leave everything that solely imbalances for Horde like AV/WPVP as is, and call it a day.
I get that you’re trying to be optimistic about what might happen if Blizz actually cared about making a good pvp experience for everyone. But I’m being realistic in that Blizz dgaf about how bad the experience gets for Alliance- see classic changes as well as retail, where Alliance basically doesn’t exist in wpvp or BGs and it’s just merc mode all day.
You don’t have to convince me the Vanilla honour system is awful- but that’s just how it works, we’d need a total system overhaul to make it even remotely decent.
Which in turn, makes it not a Vanilla honour system at all.
Yes, and premades winning say, 4 games an hour while pugs win 1 and lose 3 means that premades get far faster honour as a reward for their effort, skill and gold spent.
Is it fair that putting effort into having a team, and being more skilled gets you gear faster? I think so. Maybe the consumes use not so much, but spending money on being better is a pretty big staple of pvp and pve in WoW from Vanilla right to BfA.
Fair or not, that’s the game.
OK, but a team of individuals is going to do better.
Partially, based on proximity to kills… but the bulk of your honour comes from objectives, and frankly someone afk on their wolf behind SHGY is getting as much HK honour as the guy in front of them killing Alliance… maybe more so if that guy dies because they’re fighting.
Premades existed in Vanilla, Blizz had no issues with them in Vanilla, and they generally dominated the rankings in Vanilla.
If they honestly wanted to solely reward individual effort and skill, then they did a very bad job of making a system to do so.
Except that’s how it works, in pvp and pve. You can’t get raid gear without grouping, and Vanilla being the only time where solo players could get bis gear in pvp makes it the outlier.
From how Blizz has treated premades vs solo players in pve and pvp in every instance of the game other than Vanilla ranking heavily implies that their intent has always been to reward players that group over players that don’t.
Which is a false comparison. First there is no queueing system for dungeons or raids in vanilla. Second you can pug dungeons and raids for gear without being punished for it. Third even if you queue solo you still end up in a group you have to play with.
No you can’t, you have to make a group before hand. Sure, it may be a group of strangers- but there’s a few things you have in a dungeon/raid that you do not have in a complete pvp pug.
1- most importantly, the ability to kick players due to whatever- spec, lack of good parses, bad gear, etc… Can’t do that in a pvp pug, if you have afkers, leeches, low levels or fishers you are stuck with them.
2- If we honestly want to call that a pug- then we have to call AV premades 'pug’s too, because almost all of them were completely random people in discord trying to queue at the same time, and their biggest advantage was ironically the same thing- ability to kick people that don’t gear up, have their mount, afk, etc… from the ‘pug’