How They Messed Up Sylvanas' Arc in 9.2 (And How I Think They Can Save It) [Minor Spoilers]

Lore Story Forum
1

I’ll start with saying I’m not happy with the plot of everything since Legion regarding Sylvanas; still, the past is the past and I want to talk about where they could’ve gone with 9.2. The best part is, the fix I’m suggesting doesn’t really require retcons, just some recontextualizations that we can blame on poor storytelling. I’m more-or-less happy with Sylvanas’ judgment, so I won’t be discussing that much. My issue is with Sylvanas’ dream segment with Uther, and what that does for the character of Sylvanas and for what it seems to be trying to teach, philosophically and ethically.

Also I apologize in advance for the length of this post; I find this stuff interesting and figured I’d share my thoughts and see if anyone feels similarly–or differently. =)

What They Did:

The major themes of Sylvanas' arc are the competing ideals of justice and forgiveness, and the myriad virtues and vices associated with them. This is a wonderful topic of discussion and a great idea for her arc. But whether it was a lack of resources or a lack of understanding, the story told is both unsatisfying and--more importantly--teaches completely the wrong lessons.

What Sylvanas needs to do to awaken is to make peace between her two selves (whom I’ll call Sylvanas and the Banshee). She needs to recognize that they ARE one, and need to BE one. That’s good. But Uther’s speech to Sylvanas says that she needs to accept that SHE is the Banshee, and needs to accept her responsibility for the Banshee’s actions and accept the judgment thereof.

Where They Erred:

The most important thing they do not explore is that Sylvanas and the Banshee are not the same person anymore. People are shaped by their experiences, and Sylvanas' experiences ended the moment she died. The Banshee, however, has many years of experience to further shape her character, and most importantly, was magically altered to view what experiences she HAD shared with Sylvanas in a completely different light. From what I can tell, the Banshee lost her ability to perceive the world with any hope, any compassion, any sympathy. Consequently, she took on a psychopathic worldview, having her experiences filtered through a lens of bitterness and despair, even further deviating from the character progression Sylvanas had been on. As of 9.2, Sylvanas and the Banshee are, in reality, two very different people, just with the same objective memories and now trying to share one body.

While this is obviously a completely fantastical scenario, the concept is still rooted in real ethics: the responsibility of someone not in control of their actions, and judgment for future crimes. Uther is urging Sylvanas to take ownership of the actions of someone she is not, to accept the punishment for crimes that she herself did not do, on the basis that the Banshee is, still, Sylvanas herself. This is where we get into the more hypothetical philosophy of it. But guess what: they already addressed this apparently! I’m operating off of second-hand info here (it’s been too long for me to remember this quest) but in the Children’s Week quest where you take your charge to the Caverns of Time, some of the Bronze Dragonflight try to kill your young orphan but are stopped, because it is morally wrong (i.e. evil) to punish a child for a crime they WILL commit. THAT is the proper lesson to take with this: justice is only appropriate for crimes you HAVE committed, not that you hypothetically WILL commit. Therefore, what Uther is urging is for Sylvanas to UNJUSTLY take responsibility for–and be punished for–crimes she herself did not commit, under the guise of taking responsibility for one’s actions.

What They Should Have Done:

I agree with (I believe it was) PlatinumWoW's assessment that WoW is a poor medium to tell stories like this. It can be done, however, if you spend more time with dialogue and/or cutscenes letting people talk. They needed a LOT more talking. So here's how I would've handled it:

Uther addresses Sylvanas, but while the conversation may start the same, he latches on to something she says: “Never in a thousand lifetimes would I betray everything I stood for!” And here is where the major difference appears: he tells her that while Frostmourne stripped the Banshee of all that could give her hope, it did not make her any more evil. The seeds of cruelty, of sadism, of “necessary evils”–these all resided within Sylvanas already. That while she could leverage her experience and her perspective to suppress them, they could never go away, only wait for the right moment to grow. She needs to recognize that if she had survived the Scourge but voluntarily given up her hope, compassion, and sympathy, that she would’ve become the same monster that was masquerading as her. To become whole, she needs to accept that the Banshee IS her–a version of herself she does not want to acknowledge could exist.

Then, Uther talks to the Banshee. He reminds her that while Arthas stripped her of all that could motivate her towards good, he did not (ultimately) take her will (something very, VERY important to her character). Good and evil, he reminds her, are objective standards, ones that any being with free will recognize. He tells her that how we feel does not justify or compel any course of action, and that she knows that regardless of her motivation, be it “the greater good” or emotional self-medication, she chose to do evil, and thus must face the consequences of that choice. And he shows her that the only way for her to become whole again is to acknowledge her responsibility, recognizing this seed of good that cannot be destroyed–only suppressed.

And thus, it is by Sylvanas’ acknowledgment of the seed of evil within her, and the Banshee’s acknowledgment of the seed of good within her, that the two are united, bound by the recognition of the other in themselves. We then have a Sylvanas who, being whole again, is able to take what blame is due her for the Banshee’s sins, while also being able and willing to move on from them.

Forgiveness:

The next topic to be broached would be forgiveness. Are the crimes of the Banshee forgivable? Well... yes. The question is, who is forgiving whom? Forgiveness is about waiving your claim to the justice due you, rendering the transgression void. So yes, anybody can forgive Sylvanas... but not everybody will. And MY forgiveness of her crimes against me does not waive YOUR right to justice for the crimes she committed against you. So Sylvanas would need to learn how to forgive herself (a high calling that is within her right to do), while also accepting the judgment of those who will not forgive her. Having a character like Uther presenting the option of forgiveness to Anduin, Thrall, and most importantly Tyrande, would make the players think about it: yes, tbey can forgive Sylvanas. But should they? Should YOU? And would Sylvanas even accept it? Would it be wrong if she rejected any forgiveness offered?

Handling Sylvanas in the Future:

I was thinking about this before the judgment cinematic came out; as I said, I think they handled it fairly well. But here's where Sylvanas' arc--as well as Anduin's and Tyrande's--can continue. Personally, I would've had Anduin, as leader of the Alliance, judge Sylvanas. And I would have had him forgive her--DON'T CLOSE THE TAB YET--much to Tyrande's fury. Thrall would grudgingly follow suit, but banish her from the Horde. Sylvanas, not exactly thrilled with "getting off scot-free", would retreat to a monastery of sorts to work on herself and come to terms with her newfound life.

Without going into too much detail (this is a novella as it is), in a few expansions I would have the Horde need to deal with a Forsaken uprising, and in desperation the Horde leaders turn to Sylvanas to reunite the Forsaken underneath the Horde banner. Now thrust into a position of great power once again, Sylvanas must wrestle with the question Anduin faced earlier: when do leaders exercise justice versus forgiveness? She herself has taken on a forgiving attitude, but slowly realizes that it is not her place as leader to forgive: as long as the victims–her people–call for justice, she is the tool of that justice. She may point out that Anduin, still feeling guilty for his actions under the Jailer’s influence and being sympathetic to Sylvanas’ plight, committed an act of INJUSTICE (hey, a character flaw for the Little Lion!) when he let his personal feelings override his duty to his people as their king: he can personally forgive her crimes against him, but he has a duty to uphold justice for his people… and he failed in that. And so, come the end of the expansion, Sylvanas has become a radical defender of the Forsaken and the Horde, aggressively pursuing justice (or what she sees as justice) for her people–all while being a gentler, compassionate person in her personal relationships. This gives her back her firebrand personality (you’ve seen how aggressive people can be when calling for justice), while also completing a character arc that takes her through sin, compassion, forgiveness, and justice, and still leaves room for potential growth further on (“An eye for an eye makes the world go blind”).

I’ll wrap it up now; ultimately I think the Maw Dailies punishment is just, and you can even adapt the continuation I proposed to fit with Sylvanas’ canon characterization at the moment. My proposed arc creates what I believe are interesting dilemmas for Anduin (who needs to learn when compassion becomes a vice and how to temper it with wisdom) and Tyrande (whose rightful claim to justice was undermined by the person she trusted to rule on her behalf, and is now pursuing the vice of vengeance). I’d love to see those kinds of stories play out. While I think they made some substantial missteps regarding the philosophies in play in 9.2, I think it’s something that can be fixed if they want to.

Thank you for your time, oh Patron Saint of Patience!

1 Like
2

You mentioned that:

Uther is urging for Sylvanas to UNJUSTLY take responsibility for–and be punished for–crimes she herself did not commit, under the guise of taking responsibility for one’s actions.

Sylvanas had free will the entire time she was free from Arthas. As you have noticed, she lived her entire free willed Banshee life with a limited range of emotions and feeling. The Banshee could not feel remorse, love, life, joy, kindness just to name a few that were explicitly stated in the novel.

Blizzard seems to be doing the double talk thing, were they highlight Sylvanas was stripped of have her full range of emotions(mostly positive emotions), while at the same time trying to convince us that Sylvanas and the Banshee are the exact same. They clearly are not. One error is not showcasing the difference, putting small blurbs here and there is the same as virtually ignoring it.

How much of the lore playerbase know that Sylvanas was stripped of her emotions and feeling while being able to maintain her free will? Probably a few like yourself and I. How can they push “the only difference between the two is time” while telling us over and over that Sylvanas is stripped of emotions when she was turned into a banshee and freed from Arthas control?

Even Tyrande mentions it. So the first stepped is to kill this notion that the only difference between the RG and the BQ is time.

Everything else is mostly fine.

Handling Sylvanas in the future: Get rid of double talk, it should be common knowledge throughout Azeroth that her emotions/feeling were forcibly changed. Everything else can literally remain the same.

2 Likes
3

She felt those when reunited with Vereesa in War Crimes. Granted they were bonding over plotting a murder but she very much experienced. Though I will note that she first described them as phantom pains, which could suggest that these positive emotions were rather difficult to experience.

9 Likes
4

They messed up Sylvanas long before 9.2.

3 Likes
5

IIRC she also feel pain when trying to access those emotions and feelings in the latest novel? I’ll need to check, but in any case I think they’re trying to be really careful with explaining any reference to her having positive emotions ie have you every felt angry cool joy?

Sylvanas has

1 Like
6

Get rid of double talk, it should be common knowledge throughout Azeroth that her emotions/feeling were forcibly changed.

I don’t think that’s a great answer, though. The Banshee is, believe it or not, a real type of person: the psychopath. Medically, psychopaths are people who lack any form of empathy–they feel nothing for others’ pain or suffering. Yet we still hold them responsible for the crimes they sometimes commit because they still have free will–they can choose to do good regardless of how they feel about it. That’s kind of the definition of “free will”. And I say “sometimes commit” because there are a relatively large number of psychopaths who are fully-functional, contributing members of society–a lot of them are surgeons, apparently. They make the choice to be good neighbors because they know it’s the right (or sometimes just the logical) choice, even though they couldn’t care one way or other, emotionally. Thus, the Banshee needs to be punished for her crimes, because it’s just. To quote my post,

The question is, what do you do about the Ranger General in the same body who is completely innocent? I don’t think you can punish the Banshee without punishing Sylvanas, not without completely ruining the Sylvanas Windrunner everyone’s loved since vanilla. So people are gonna feel angry no matter what they do with the character, because it’s super messy and they clearly didn’t think this through enough.

That’s why I proposed the ending I did: Sylvanas does her time in Purgatory, goes through a proper canon character arc, then comes out as a zealous, blood-thirsty hero of the Horde (but a good person. lol). It gives catharsis to those who want her to suffer, gives us Hordies our Banshee Queen back–if a little worse for wear–and lets them resume telling (hopefully good) stories with her, unlike Thrall from Cata or Vol’jin from Legion, who were completely written out of the story and… then what? But that’s a different discussion.

EDIT: I don’t know if I’m misunderstanding you, but I didn’t say the only difference was time. The only differences were perspective (e.g. emotional contextualization) and experience (the Banshee’s had decades of extra time to shape her worldview, and that again colored by her perspective). But those are massively important changes for one’s worldview and character development. Think of someone emerging from a cult: suddenly all the positive experiences they had with the leader are changed into negative experiences, simply because of their change in perspective (“Cult leader is divine” to “Cult leader took advantage of me”).

7

The simple way to fix slyvanas is to give her the rotbrain condition. This would explain why she is so stupid and inconsistent in her personality. By having her mind literally decaying each time she was resurrected it would make her fear of dying much more agreeable. And maybe having the jailer lie to her would still be in fact that the jailer could of had a cure for this condition. Which would of give the writers the chance to keep her in story without butchering her character.

8

I agree with you in a big way. I really try to stay away from real world examples because they fail most of the time, but if I was to compare her situation to real life it would be something along the lines of temporary insanity.

Even now I think she needs to spend a lot of time in therapy and getting rehabilitated. Which brings me to my second point.

Soul splitting, she is neither BQ nor RG but yet she is both of them at the same time. After reading the Sylvanas novel it is clear that the curse of undeath is much more than a skin disease. Meaning after she was made into the BQ and even after she was free from Arthas domination she was still rewired by the curse.

How does RG and BQ get punished in the after life? We will never know.

At the end of the day it may all be a moot point because Sylvanas will be alive and kicking as long WoW is a thing. I’m happy my worst case scenarios for Sylvanas didn’t come true.

How does RG and BQ get punished as a mortal? Water under the bridge, but I like your ideal on how she emerges.

I know, I was commending you for knowing that time isn’t the only difference. You laid it out quite nicely.

1 Like
9

Okay, I misunderstood your post it seems. Rereading it in this context it makes a lot more sense. I can get defensive and that colors my reading sometimes ('ey, emotional context!). Sorry about that. xD

Definitely the best idea. I was iffy on the comparisons just because my understanding of them is academic at best, so I’m likely missing a lot of nuance regarding them. I’ll probably avoid them in the future.

Yeah, they really saved themselves with the judgment scene. A lot of catharsis for everyone who wanted her punished for her crimes, keeps her alive for the fans. And it gives them a lot of room to play with her character (who knows what she’ll be coming out of purgatory?), keeps her out of sight, out of mind for a while, but lets them pull her out when they want her back. Well-played writers, we needed to see that.