Shamelessly stolen from Katiera from the SF discord.
As i don’t want this thread to devolve into personal attacks, i’m not going to state my opinion on the subject, at least not on the OP.
I’d like to hear specially the Horde playerbase ideas about the subject.
The Hordes morality should be the following
What’s good for the people of the horde> whats good for the horde as a whole> what’s good for the whole of azeroth> whats good for the alliance.
Sylvanas fits none of those criteria, but baine seems to only meet the last and least important criteria for the horde.
Fighting a war while azeroth dies is good for azeroth?
The Horde shouldn’t have a single inviolable monomorality. The Horde should be a collective of factions working together for shared interests but keeping their own needs and plots at the heart of their actions. The alliance ought to be written the same way. Warchiefs and High Kings whose wills are law make for uninteresting and uninspired stories. I’m not saying we should have MoP civil war plotlines, but split, partisan leadership of the factions with realistic, historically inspired interactions, and clashes where necessary.
That would be my predilection, anyway. Having an evolving plot driven by geopolitics, I think, would make for a more fascinating world and lore than the Marvel movie formula we’ve seen since WoTLK.
Of course, were putting her out of her misery.
As much as I have issues with his theories and certain modern disciples of his, Jung’s ideas of the individual entity and of the ‘Shadow’ seem to be a good fit for the Horde. The Horde have been monstrous, and continue to be in several respects - but they choose to be good (or should in a competent narrative). And because that choice is real and hard, it has a moral weight beyond the default passiveness that other people are subject to.
If there is nothing dangerous about you, if you had no choice to be anything but good as a consequence of your nature and circumstance, how good can you really be? The Horde are dangerous by their nature, and have been monstrous. That makes their redemption and ongoing quest to be better people a more meaningful effort than Blanduin’s compelled moral service.
This also fits nicely with stuff like the Horde being less light-aligned, and the Mag’har’s rejection of Yrel. The light binding you into ‘goodness’ denies you the choice between the moral and immoral, and thus making you a de-facto amoral entity.
This concept of Monsters-Choosing-Morality is also a great framework for what used to be a highly individualistic and traditionalist society, until Cata and that era tore this down. The Horde are in a dangerous world, and anything that wants to control them will learn that they are also dangerous, and willing to fight for their right to choose between monstrosity and morality. Yes, that makes them unpredictable as neighbors, but it’s also what makes them mighty allies and a strong community. The Alliance, chained to the Light and far more collectivist, should rightly be wary of the Horde and their constant flirtation with their darker side. That is a meaningful conflict.
It also fits real nice with the Cult of the Forgotten Shadow, and bridges the gap between Kalimdor Horde and Forsaken/Belves.
So yeah. Get the writers to read some Jung. Don’t buy into too much, mind you, but as a framework for Horde ideals I think it would be great.
Morality is really difficult to nail down in a faction that is as diverse as the Horde. Having the morality of the Forsaken is poison to the Tauren and forcing the morality of the Tauren will suffocate the Forsaken. The morals should just be survival and freedom.
The role of Warchief is a part of this problem. Naturally the morals and culture of an individual Warchief will be a part of their tenure as leader. It’s time to end the position unless they are in times of strife or war.
The only time when the Warchief should be active is in emergencies. For an example see the concise command Sylvanas used at the Broken Shore.
Our morals should allow us to be true to our true nature and I mean all of us.
I liked WC3 Horde’s lawful good idealism and honor.
I liked Vanilla Forsaken’s amoral pragmatism and enlightened self interest.
They don’t work together at all, but as long as they are separated by a continent, it was ok.
In BFA though, the Horde are being written as the antagonists to drive the story so they don’t actually have coherent morals beyond “whatever the stupid thing writers need them to do for RULE OF COOL moments!”
This, though I’d say:
What’s good for the people of the Horde>What’s good for the Horde as a whole>What’s good for part of the Horde but not bad for the rest>what’s bad for the Alliance>What’s good for Azeroth
Doing good for the Alliance and what’s ‘honorable’ at the cost of the Horde should never even come into the equation.
Surprised at how little people care about the actual world in World of Warcraft. That’s the first word in the name, yet everyone seems far more interested in the War part than anything else.
I’m a filthy neutral though, so my personal beliefs are what’s good for Azeroth > everything else.
Blizzard haven’t given us much reason to care.
Besides, what’s good for the Horde can also be good for Azeroth. Obviously we ain’t gonna allow the planet to be physically destroyed or made uninhabitable.
I don’t think the death of the world soul will in any way harm the planet itself. But I guess we’ll have to wait and see.
So you’re in favor of starting a war for control of Kalimdor when the world soul is dying? Because that’s putting the good of the Horde as a whole above what’s good for the whole of Azeroth.
The Horde’s morality needs to fit in with the reality that this is a mainstream fantasy universe where we save Azeroth from impending doom every 6 months. They can’t be the threat to the world.
Otherwise you get situations like we have now where Sylvanas’ plans can never succeed. And imo more importantly her methods are unsustainable. There is no situation where trying to use Xal’atath doesn’t end horribly for her.
Another part of that reality is that pragmaticism at the expense of principles is not something the heroes do in these universes. The characters of the Horde need principles. And most of them do. Getting rid of those is not going to happen.
Tl;dr, WoW is not a universe where we are going to get more in depth politics and reality than Marvel movies.
I mean, everytime we kill a major baddie, we’re helping save Azeroth.
I do agree on them not having much reason to care about Azeroth’s future nowon BFA, because she’s bleeding out but Nathanos says “bah that’s not as important”.
I wish they’d go full grey and wrap up the Sylvanas story with her death and people seeing her as a brutal genocidal maniac and is hailed as one of the heroes of the Horde by a small select group of people in the know…sort of like Itachi in Naruto, perhaps?
Hey, uh. Hi.
I’d like Azeroth to not be dead. I got most of my stuff on Azeroth.
Can we put more chips on the “help fix the planet” table? Feels like it’d fit all 4 of those categories.