You can achieve your goal while failing the thing you are participating in. You can set your goal to whatever you want, like +2 runs, but the win conditions for M+ are consistent.
You need to meet all three conditions to objectively “win” and get full crests and upgraded key. Failing upwards means that you are still getting rewards for failing. This is regardless of what you set your personal goals to.
I believe this is only the case in solo-queue pvp. In a raid, dungeon, or even premade arenas I believe you can DC and your team still win and get credited?
If they win yes. But thats a big if.
I was just equating disconnect to failure
This wasn’t the assertion.
It would have been better to just admit you’re wrong.
gg
The assertion was failing up. It would have been better to admit you were wrong when you moved the goal posts from upgrading to “any reward”
It’s not the entire premise. The timer is the secondary challenge that is required to gain rating to unlock the seasonal rewards. If you kill the last boss, that isn’t failing the dungeon. You completed the dungeon, even if you didn’t do it on time. If the dungeon immediately kicked you out when the timer went off, then yes, that would be failing the dungeon.
Primary challenge.
Dont beat the timer, dont advance and actually go backwards.
While i agree with this, i think removing the rewards is enough. Let people finish the dungeon if they so choose, if for nothing but the experience.
But literally being able to fail EVERY dungeon run and still end up with max ilvl…i think thats a very faulty system
Only for the key. Doing the dungeon is the primary task. Eventually it becomes numerically impossible to time the key or complete the dungeon. If it was just a race to the end, there wouldn’t be requirements on engaging with mob packs.
Wasting people’s time for 20-25 minutes is not a winning strategy for a game mode that is losing participation. It is okay for games to offer recompense for time spent even if the rewards are not as good as timing the key. I say this as a person who has wasted quite a bit of time and has plenty of it to waste, I would prefer people not waste their own.
Thats the primary task for normal, heroic, and mythic dungeons, sure.
M+ is all about the timer. When you list a key, it defaults to “standard”. Know which option isnt “standard”? Thats right…completion.
Meaning timing a key is the standard/primary function of m+
Both things can exist and be true at the same time. Which is currently what we have.
Beating all the bosses doesnt stop the dungeon, getting the mob count doesnt stop the dungeon. Doing both INSIDE THE TIME LIMIT does.
Nor is failing your way to the very top. But thats what it allows. You cant do it in pvp and you cant do it in raids and you cant do it in delves.
Sure offer the 5 crests. No end of dungeon loot, no vault progress.
This way you need to at least be successful a few times before failing your way to the top.
Have to at least succeed in that one +7 for that shot at Hero track gear. Can fail all the 8s you want to accumulate the gilded crests to spend on that one piece of gear, but have to have that one success at least
That’s only the function of the key, again. To complete the key and get the rewards from the key, you have to complete the key. To get rewards from the dungeon, i.e the potential one (1) loot drop and pittance of 5 crests, you have to complete the dungeon. Getting loot, gold, other resources from the chest is a function of completing the dungeon. Even if a person fails to time every +2 that they ever do, and do not progress past +2, if they’re completing the dungeon, they should get the rewards for completing the dungeon.
But as you’ve pointed out, if you fail the key, you go backwards. So how can you fail up in this system if you only fail keys but get the loot at the end? At a certain point, gear can no longer carry you.
Also, you’re wrong about the PVP part because you do get resources for failing, just less of them, like in M+.
And my stance is that this shouldnt belong in m+.
All or nothing like the other modes
Which i gave a solution to above
Group based game. Other people can carry me to completion. And only my key goes backwards. Nothing says i cant use someone elses key.
But you need the rating to get the max ilvl rewards in pvp. Having all the resources does me no good if i cant get the rating to buy them. Just like renown. I can have 20k resonant crystals…but if i dont have the renown to unlock the items, the crystals are worthless
Then they timed the key. Even if someone else carried them to it. That’s not a function of them not timing the key, which is what the discussion was about.
Yes. Other people timed a key.
That doesnt stop me from failing every run to max ilvl
We weren’t talking about carries, which have always been a thing and are a thing even in raiding. Even in raiding if someone tanks the floor and the rest of the group do it without them because they paid for it, they still get rewards as a function of other people beating the raid. I don’t see why it would be different in M+, if people can time a +12 with an underperforming 5th member specifically because that person is being carried. That is a function of them being carried, not failing at a normally formed group.
Bringing this discussion back to where we were, let’s say more accurately that there are two functions of M+ rewards. Completing the dungeon awards a chance at an item, but more than likely gold and a small amount of crests. That’s the baseline for completing the dungeon. The additional crests, rating gain, and key gain are functions of completing the timer on the key. It is fair that one gets the baseline rewards for completing the dungeon but not advanced rewards for completing the key because they satisfied the baseline condition. If they do not satisfy either condition, they get nothing, which is what failure is in this case.
If the baseline rewards is a small amount of crests and some gold, sure.
The ilvl from low keys is trash and functionally do not matter, and are a fairly low drop % anyway. So that is essentially where we’re at now. No one is failing up with the pittance as it is, so I’m glad we agree at last.
Then you need another ~90 +8s or higher to get enough gilded crests to fully upgrade all that gear.
Agreed. But its the upgrade system that allows failing upwards
I can spam 2s and get full champion gear.
I can upgrade to…606? At which point im more than capable of getting into 4s, which give me crests to upgrade to 619, all the while getting hero track gear in the vault.
Now im able to move into 6s-8s, getting more hero track gear at the end of the dungeon and getting crests to upgrade to 626
626 is more than enough to get into and fail 10s which award me with mythic track gear 623 ilvl, and now ive got the crests to uprade 623 to 639 or craft a bunch of 636 wearable items
One of the two things required to fail upwards needs removed. Complete the dungeon but miss the timer, have some crests. At least that you can use to upgrade the geae you got from completing a dungeon in time.
You can, but why would you when T8 Delves are so much easier and give better rewards (until you hit 619)?
Working as intended so nothing needs to be removed. Vault is a form of bad-luck protection; you get one guaranteed piece per week (that may or may not be useful), unlike Mythic Raid which offers up to 8 pieces per week if everyone rolls on everything (which seems much less likely in a Mythic group of organized raiders probably using a loot council), and again some may not even bother if it’s not a useful upgrade to them.
Why do you care so much about removing vault rewards from an un-timed dungeon? Your insistence that M+ rewards should be all-or-nothing solely based on the timer is clearly not how the devs designed M+. I guess you can argue your case, but why should they change the current design if it meets their goals? Why are you design goals better for player engagement, retaining subscriptions, and total net profits?
Because I don’t get rewards for failing delves
Your maths isnt mathing. Raid has a 20% drop rate. 8 bosses, 4 pieces of loot, 32 total / 20 = 1.6 per person on average.
You think this is about vault rewards?? Did you bother reading the back and forth??
They’ve changed how loot works many times since its inception. Whos to say they wont do it again? My “insistence” is that its a design flaw. You shouldnt be able to fail 100% and end up with max rewards.
I dont really care one way or another if it changes or not, its just my opinion on the matter.
If it was their design goal, they’d do it to all forms of content, yet they dont. Dont you think raiding engagement would go up if you could hit mythic gear by failing normal raids over and over? Or max out pvp gear by losing every game in ranked matches?
I get where youre coming from, but your logic behind it is flawed