Even with HotS included, Frozen Tempest and Remorseless Winter are basically the same thing, so he has what… 3? Maybe 4 abilities overall for frost while Unholy is around 13-14 abilities. 15 if you include Fury of Frostmourne which kills everyone in the raid with 1,000,000 shadow damage. 16 if you count Death Coil from HotS and Warcraft.
Arguing if something should or shouldnt have been removed is a waste of time.
Some people were happy that lead was in gasoline, but it was detrimental to the environment and everyone else so it was removed. No one was being spiteful to those that liked the lead in gasoline, but happy that more people could have a better life.
So I dont think people were happy that people lost something that they liked, but were happy because more people could do well and the overall performance was brought up. Its not like what people want from 2h couldnt be given to DW, but they actively refuse that, like they are the ones being spiteful towards DW players and they dont want them to have any of it.
Or they will say no deal to transmog options which is coming from a spiteful mindset. How is allowing more people to play more options and allowing for cosmetic options a bad thing?
DW gets more procs and I agree that it feels better to play, but there is about a million ways in which they can give 2H more procs to make it play just as well.
That’s not really congruent with DK’s class fantasy.
I can see a very casual player saying something along those lines. It doesn’t mean that it shouldn’t be competitive for 2H enjoyers who take part in endgame activities. No one wants to lose throughput because of a weapon choice. That’s why weapon specializations went away.
~1-3%. Obviously that doesn’t sound like much, but you can’t make a claim like “they are exactly the same” when they’re not, from a min/max perspective. It boils down to 2 weapon enchants, and I believe some additional benefits of having shadowcore oil on 2 weapons (better dps than stones at least for PVE)
The biggest reason, and I offer my opinion here, is because of class fantasy. Going all the way back to wc3, DK’s always were hulking plate wearers with a fat 2H weapon.
If it were up to me, I’d delete DW entirely and rework frost to be a 2H spec from the ground up. I’ve never felt like a true DK when dual wielding.
“Beserker feel” doesn’t match what a death knight is: -
HoTs Arthas: Death Coil, Howling Blast, Frozen Tempest, Summon Sindragosa, Army of the Dead; 3/5 Frost theme
WoW Arthas: Summon Ghouls, Summon Val’kyr, Necrotic Plague, Remorseless Winter, Soul Reaper, Defile; 5/6 Unholy themed.
WC3 Arthas: Death Coil, Death Pact, Unholy Aura, Animate Dead.
Arthas is definitely biased towards Unholy; Blizzard saying in Legion that they want Frost to imitate Arthas from Halls of Reflection and players incorrectly took that, plus a couple of abilities used in the expansion, as “Arthas is Frost”.
Because it was redesigned around Cata/MoP that way to have a stronger focus on DW. It’s the equivalent of “Enhancement feels better as DW compared to 2h”. They added back the weapon type (2H) but didn’t change the underlying design, hence the disparity between the two.
True, but what I think what made Arthas more biased towards Frost is the name of the undead dragons are called Frost Wyrms.
Not Dracoliches… Frost Wyrms.
Hots Arthas has 3 out of 5 Frost Themed abilities but he has so many talents based off from Frost DK.
WoW Arthas have many abilities that are Unholy themed, sure. But I’d argue that one or two true unholy themed abilities are Necrotic Plague and maybe Defile.
I don’t think WC3 Arthas was not attuned to Frost Magic at all. Before he became the Lich King which speaking of, I think Liches in WC3 are Frost Attuned as well.
Conclusion? I’m starting to think he’s biased towards both Frost and Unholy. I don’t recall him using Blood DK related abilities at all other than Rune Tap.
Whats the class fantasy and when did it change from that then?
That was an argument in the “megathread”. But 2h is in the situation it is in right now because people said “let those people that want it to be competitive worry about that I just want to use the weapon” and those same people were the ones that turned tail and basically quit when it was just enabled without anything and it was, and I dont know any other way to put it, hot New York sewer garbage. It didnt hit harder with anything, it had KM procs that amounted to nothing, it hit weaker than DW with most everything outside of Obliterate which it was even with. It smelled worse than the “soil amendments” out here in Georgia where people cant even leave their houses.
The hits… there is hardly any different between a 2h Tiger Palm and a DW Tiger Palm. Just like there isnt any difference between a 2h Obliterate and DW Obliterate if MotFW didnt exist in the form we have right now. 1-3% cant really be measured for the vast majority of people. They wont see that difference and I would even argue that the top players wont even really see that difference because there is so much going on you can see a 1% difference between pulls so its not really worth the argument that they arent “exactly the same”.
Dk’s back in WC3 were mounted knights that swung their sword with 1h while the other had its hand on the reigns.
The only design change that really happened in cata was mastery, and Killing Machine removing Howling Blast from it and including Obliterate instead. The procs didnt really change at all until legion when they changed it from auto attacks to auto attack crits.
When I say that cant be measured by the vast majority of people, I mean they wont notice it and that you can have that variance between pulls and is really hard to say if its the result of a weapon choice, or a few wrong button presses, or just something happening on one pull than another. The 1-3% difference is practically identical to 99.99% of people.
When you get down to it, you arent really helping anything with this sort of argument. All it really does is say that the weapons should just be stat sticks if you want to get the weapons close.
That wasn’t an argument, that was correcting you on a false claim.
Also, the mechanics of the two classes are different, the damage profiles are different and the extent to which resources and a bunch of other things are affected by weapon choices are different.
Which is why the discrepancy is larger for the class of death knight in the spec of frost. And is also why there are actual ideas and arguments to be had here regarding the discrepancy, and also the opportunity to discuss having the spec be able to be unique in both areas to a much more competitive level, something which would further individualise the spec.