How I would have done to Frost DK Talent Tree

Classes Death Knight
12

My point exactly. But I guess to each of their own?

That’s another way to fix the KM proccing from AA.

Not that it’s a bad thing. :slight_smile:

I don’t really need to answer it because it’s painfully obvious that I would go DW if I need the scaling DW has. DW outscales 2H because as long as it has an extra runeforge. The more applicable that runeforge is, the heavier DW scales.

For instance, pre-4pc, it outscales 2H by 15% strength proc. What’s better, a 15% strength proc or 30% Obliterate damage increase?

Okay, now that you have a source of RI application from 4pc, it outscales 2H by extra RP cap and extra RP generation proc because of BoS. If you are going Obliteration, you’d be 2H.

4pc made the difference between 2H and DW a lot less to make Obliteration a lot more viable while BoS will remain competitive.

Cool! So DW will remain a runeforge ahead of 2H with various effect with more frequent KM procs! What does 2H get? An Obliterate Dammie increase with greater KM weight.

There are solutions to make KM procced from abilities rather than AA crits. One of them is from you. But to go back to my original question:

  • If I’m ever going 2-Handed Frost, first… Why should I? Which runeforge should I give up as Frost? If I use Razorice, how can I keep up with DW’s Strength Proc? If I use FC, how can I keep up with DW’s RI?

You deflected that I should just play DW which I don’t really find constructive. And hey, to each of their own have creative ways to get the delta between DW and 2H closer or… eliminate the difference between them in terms of KM procs altogether.

Personally I like the idea of DW having frequent KM procs and 2H have greater KM weights to capitalize their difference but if that’s even problematic, it can be streamlined. FOR KM ANYWAY.

15% Strength Proc is marginally better and more practical than 30% Obliterate Damage Increase in PvE. In PvP, there are a lot more 2 handers since FC can be inconsistent.

I mean the difference between 2H and DW Frost has always been contentious. I believe you are right about Frost being in a much better spot in Legion and beyond. It’s not like there is one ability that people are grown very tired to use at this point. -COUGH- BoS -COUGH-

Currently Frost outscales Unholy and afaik, Unholy is a jumbo of a mess with the introduction of Festering Wuunds and lots of cooldowns costing globals.

Frost is a DW spec, it’s also a 2H spec. It’s both. Should be both and should coexist. At least that’s what I’ve been trying to do with MotFW/ToT node. More simpler solutions to close the gap between 2h/DW exists and I don’t mind them because they made TG baseline for Fury for some odd reason while keeping SMF in the talent tree. MotFW currently have a short end of a stick locked behind the most annoying passive in the game: UNLEASHED FRENZY.

Frost is all and well. It will be better in DF. It will continue to strive in DF. The problem with it currently is extremely one dimensional with no alternatives. 2H will be DoA with the absence of 4pc while DW Rolling RW build with BoS will remain scale disproportionately across the tree.

Solving that issue is the objective of Frost DK tree and what I would overall do it. Some are insane; some are creative.

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13

Well not really DW is superior for monks

We could have that debate all day and not get anywhere; solution is just bring 2H right up to be competitive with DW in every facet - the means are irrelevant, the choice to play either is what matters

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14

Not to mention it will be less punishing to tank if gathering blood gear can still be useful with frost gear

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15

Its not a debate, its a question to try to understand where people are coming from. If the end goal is to bring 2h to be competitive with DW in every facet then why not just play DW? If the goal is to give 2h 2 runeforges why not just play DW that already gets it? If the goal is to give 2h the same amount of KM procs why not just play DW that already gets it? If the goal is to open up more build opportunities as DW why not just play DW that already gets it? Thats what is so hard to understand to be completely honest.

Also is there really a choice to be made if both are the same? To me none of this actually makes any sense of why go through all this work just to get where something already is and im trying to understand it.

By how much and why?

You are still dictating the style of play for those weapons, limiting each weapon means you just have to get 3 weapons to cover all of your bases.

Thats a no brainer… a 15% strength proc since it amplifies all of your damage. So if its better then why did people want MotFW back with the Obliterate steroid? Ive read the threads and it absolutely exists out there.

I asked a simple question to try to understand people. Its kind of telling that people dont want to answer it though. Just trying to understand why its such a big deal to play 2h instead of DW.

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16

I don’t think you can swap equipment in the middle of combat. It’s either DW or 2H on player’s choice. That is a good thing. You don’t really have to get 3 weapons to “cover all your bases”.

With that logic, you have to get 4 weapons to cover Fury’s basics which I don’t think that’s really the case.

People want MotFW back because people want to play 2H as Frost. 2H Frost was known to have big Obliterates and the passive tuning towards it reflects on that.

Problem is, 2H is a lot less practical than DW which is what these changes to fix. There are many solutions to it by making MotFW having a free runeforge with controlled KM delta.

People like to play 2H Frost. Arthas was more or less 2H Frost and captures that fantasy. Frostmourne was a 2-handed weapon. Arthas mainly has Frost abilities like Howling Blast, Frozen Tempest, abilities that enhance Frostmourne with Frost Magic.

Mordekaiser from League of Legends is also has a fantasy of 2H Frost DK. He just painted metal than Frost Magic (Blackfrost Mordekaiser when?) and one of his abilities is literally called Obliterate with his giant mace named Nightfall.

It’s aesthetically pleasing. A giant hulking frozen death juggernaut that strikes people with heavy blows with their giant weapon. DW is death by a thousand cuts in comparison to 2H. 2H shatters enemies with massive blows.

Hope Grievus can expand on why DW is better for monks because I have no knowledge on that class other than basics of Fistweaving.

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17

I do recall giving feedback against bringing back MotFW when they announced the return of 2H and I wasn’t the only one, because a lot of us saw the balancing issues coming from a mile away. Bringing back 2H was a great choice, but creating subspecs was not.

I’m pretty sure the DK was heavily represented as a 2H class in the art/media when it was first introduced so that’s a strong part of it. Personally I didn’t start playing DK to use DW, that’s for rogues/shamans/monks/etc.

Despite all the metrics and metas, class fantasy still matters and many players never wanted to be a DW DK, just as I’m sure some love playing DW (for whatever reason :person_shrugging: ).

That’s why I think the devs should do everything possible to give 2H and DW parity and allow for gameplay choices via the talents. You want strong 1/2 target damage and big Obliterates? Go Obliteration. You want strong cleave every 2mins? Go BoS. Maybe allow icecap to be a middle ground with good ST and consistent cleave. Anyway, the choice should be in the talents, not the weapons!

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18

Arthas is objectively closer to Unholy in just about all media, but the context I’ve always received is he’s the perfect Death Knight in that he can (or could) utilize all forms of magic (Blood, Frost, & Unholy) at their maximum.

Because this is still an RPG and player choice of how to play out their class shouldn’t be weapon dependent. Elemental Shamans aren’t suddenly 5% worse for using a staff instead of MH+Shield; Fury isn’t 5% worse for using 1-handers over 2-handers (when Jaithys/Gavel isn’t an option); WW isn’t 5% behind when using 2h vs DW; why should Frost DK be any different?

+1. I remember the joy on these forums over it’s return and I remember not having much support when explaining why it wasn’t a good passive to come back.

As long as KM is based on autos & MoTFW’s Obliterate boost exist there will always be a balancing issue though.

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19

Class fantasy does matter and that has been gone over over and over and over again. Regardless of that, Blizzard wanted DK to have DW somewhere in it and that turned out to be frost. They said in an interview that was linked that I cant find that if they couldnt get it to work then they would scrap it and have DK be entirely 2h. But it works for frost and works well.

I can tell you exactly why I play DW as Frost, it gets more procs which feels better and its also more complete. Not to mention the berserker feel that it had in wrath.

But its clearly mechanic dependent. It doesnt matter with Elemental shamans because their weapons are basically stat sticks. You dont get more Lava Surge? procs depending on if you have a mh+shield or a staff. Fury is the same way they arent mechanically different. WW isnt mechanically different either. Frost is mechanically different that should be self evident from the simple fact people are trying to work around this mechanical difference.

DW hits the same as a 2h if the 30% Obliterate damage thing wasnt there and you dont factor in RI anywhere. Even back in Wrath the damage isnt far off and currently with DW its actually a little ahead in the ptr/beta which some are saying is a bug but they are about equal.

But, how something plays and how something looks are 2 different things. How something plays can be put on any weapon at any time.

There is also a choice, but I also remember and reading though that 2h megathread is many people said that they just wanted the ability to use a 2h and they didnt care if it was 20% behind… what happened there lol.

20

I’d argue that Arthas is biased towards Frost, he would be closer to it since he has many Frost related abilities in WoW and HotS. Two of his three abilities are frost: Howling Blast; Frozen Tempest. Majority of his talents are related to Frost. Frostmourne is an extension of his powers.

But I do agree he’s the perfect DK that utilizes all forms of magic.

Which is why I love your solution for MotFW’s RW applying RI and Frost Strike/Rime proccing KM instead of AA. Eliminating KM delta entirely between 2h and DW and give the spec much more control.

That sounds as likely as bringing Presences and Necrotic Plague back, however.

It’s just one of those things that shouldn’t be removed in the first place. Yes, people are happy that 2H is back, impractical or not. Nobody is excited about taking something away from players unless you’re a really spiteful one.

Impractical subspec is still impractical. Which is why…

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21

Even with HotS included, Frozen Tempest and Remorseless Winter are basically the same thing, so he has what… 3? Maybe 4 abilities overall for frost while Unholy is around 13-14 abilities. 15 if you include Fury of Frostmourne which kills everyone in the raid with 1,000,000 shadow damage. 16 if you count Death Coil from HotS and Warcraft.

Arguing if something should or shouldnt have been removed is a waste of time.

Some people were happy that lead was in gasoline, but it was detrimental to the environment and everyone else so it was removed. No one was being spiteful to those that liked the lead in gasoline, but happy that more people could have a better life.

So I dont think people were happy that people lost something that they liked, but were happy because more people could do well and the overall performance was brought up. Its not like what people want from 2h couldnt be given to DW, but they actively refuse that, like they are the ones being spiteful towards DW players and they dont want them to have any of it.

Or they will say no deal to transmog options which is coming from a spiteful mindset. How is allowing more people to play more options and allowing for cosmetic options a bad thing?

22

DW gets more procs and I agree that it feels better to play, but there is about a million ways in which they can give 2H more procs to make it play just as well.

That’s not really congruent with DK’s class fantasy.

I can see a very casual player saying something along those lines. It doesn’t mean that it shouldn’t be competitive for 2H enjoyers who take part in endgame activities. No one wants to lose throughput because of a weapon choice. That’s why weapon specializations went away.

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23

~1-3%. Obviously that doesn’t sound like much, but you can’t make a claim like “they are exactly the same” when they’re not, from a min/max perspective. It boils down to 2 weapon enchants, and I believe some additional benefits of having shadowcore oil on 2 weapons (better dps than stones at least for PVE)

The biggest reason, and I offer my opinion here, is because of class fantasy. Going all the way back to wc3, DK’s always were hulking plate wearers with a fat 2H weapon.

If it were up to me, I’d delete DW entirely and rework frost to be a 2H spec from the ground up. I’ve never felt like a true DK when dual wielding.

“Beserker feel” doesn’t match what a death knight is: -

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24

HoTs Arthas: Death Coil, Howling Blast, Frozen Tempest, Summon Sindragosa, Army of the Dead; 3/5 Frost theme
WoW Arthas: Summon Ghouls, Summon Val’kyr, Necrotic Plague, Remorseless Winter, Soul Reaper, Defile; 5/6 Unholy themed.
WC3 Arthas: Death Coil, Death Pact, Unholy Aura, Animate Dead.

Arthas is definitely biased towards Unholy; Blizzard saying in Legion that they want Frost to imitate Arthas from Halls of Reflection and players incorrectly took that, plus a couple of abilities used in the expansion, as “Arthas is Frost”.

Because it was redesigned around Cata/MoP that way to have a stronger focus on DW. It’s the equivalent of “Enhancement feels better as DW compared to 2h”. They added back the weapon type (2H) but didn’t change the underlying design, hence the disparity between the two.

1 Like
25

True, but what I think what made Arthas more biased towards Frost is the name of the undead dragons are called Frost Wyrms.

Not Dracoliches… Frost Wyrms.

Hots Arthas has 3 out of 5 Frost Themed abilities but he has so many talents based off from Frost DK.
WoW Arthas have many abilities that are Unholy themed, sure. But I’d argue that one or two true unholy themed abilities are Necrotic Plague and maybe Defile.
I don’t think WC3 Arthas was not attuned to Frost Magic at all. Before he became the Lich King which speaking of, I think Liches in WC3 are Frost Attuned as well.

Conclusion? I’m starting to think he’s biased towards both Frost and Unholy. I don’t recall him using Blood DK related abilities at all other than Rune Tap.

26

Whats the class fantasy and when did it change from that then?

That was an argument in the “megathread”. But 2h is in the situation it is in right now because people said “let those people that want it to be competitive worry about that I just want to use the weapon” and those same people were the ones that turned tail and basically quit when it was just enabled without anything and it was, and I dont know any other way to put it, hot New York sewer garbage. It didnt hit harder with anything, it had KM procs that amounted to nothing, it hit weaker than DW with most everything outside of Obliterate which it was even with. It smelled worse than the “soil amendments” out here in Georgia where people cant even leave their houses.

The hits… there is hardly any different between a 2h Tiger Palm and a DW Tiger Palm. Just like there isnt any difference between a 2h Obliterate and DW Obliterate if MotFW didnt exist in the form we have right now. 1-3% cant really be measured for the vast majority of people. They wont see that difference and I would even argue that the top players wont even really see that difference because there is so much going on you can see a 1% difference between pulls so its not really worth the argument that they arent “exactly the same”.

Dk’s back in WC3 were mounted knights that swung their sword with 1h while the other had its hand on the reigns.

The only design change that really happened in cata was mastery, and Killing Machine removing Howling Blast from it and including Obliterate instead. The procs didnt really change at all until legion when they changed it from auto attacks to auto attack crits.

27

Anyone who looks at logs or sims can see the difference, its not a hard procedure

I see it all the time in my own reviews and I’m far from a CE player these days. Writing it off as negligible is just ignorant. The difference exists.

Now granted, monks have it alot better. There is a larger discrepancy with frost DK’s than WW monks, hence the existence of these ideas and arguments

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When I say that cant be measured by the vast majority of people, I mean they wont notice it and that you can have that variance between pulls and is really hard to say if its the result of a weapon choice, or a few wrong button presses, or just something happening on one pull than another. The 1-3% difference is practically identical to 99.99% of people.

When you get down to it, you arent really helping anything with this sort of argument. All it really does is say that the weapons should just be stat sticks if you want to get the weapons close.

29

That wasn’t an argument, that was correcting you on a false claim.

Also, the mechanics of the two classes are different, the damage profiles are different and the extent to which resources and a bunch of other things are affected by weapon choices are different.

Which is why the discrepancy is larger for the class of death knight in the spec of frost. And is also why there are actual ideas and arguments to be had here regarding the discrepancy, and also the opportunity to discuss having the spec be able to be unique in both areas to a much more competitive level, something which would further individualise the spec.

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30

Alright, im just not going to talk to you anymore because you are arguing against something im not even saying. No point in continuing with you.

31

I really like seeing our tier set and deaths due included. They should have been in the first place.

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