I mean, should they?
Basically every undead with any dialogue can’t help but go on about how awful it is to -be- undead, isn’t it a real “are we the baddies” moment when you acknowledge that you’re subjecting someone to cruel torture and do it anyway, against their will - possibly decades after their death?
Calia can die already, she’s a terrible choice to lead the Forsaken. She wouldn’t have had the chutzpah to burn that tree, we all know it.
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This may sound harsh, but by what merits do the Forsaken have a ‘right’ to exist? What ‘culture’ do they actually have that should be preserved? Mind you, I’m not personally against their existence; I’m simply asking from a philosophical standpoint.
Their presence does benefit the Horde, in terms of adding to the factions strength…but at the same time, their emblematic disdain for the living and often criminal behavior makes it difficult to champion any cause for maintaining their existence, much less increase their numbers.
The only real reason to do so has to do with game-play. The player-base that enjoys portraying their Forsaken characters deserve having the race remain viable…but if you think about it, that still doesn’t necessarily mean the race needs to thrive and grow.
Because of their efforts, Blood Elves and Vulpera exist.
Besides, everyone has an innate-inalienable right to exist. Just because the Forsaken are mostly dead, doesn’t mean they need a slip of paper proving they’re good to go.
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I was really hoping they would introduce necromancies into their society more prominently and also maybe death knights as well not being restricted to ebon blade since they can raise undead as well. But blizzard doesn’t have the foresight for that.
Say what? You might be able to argue that the Blood Elves are members of the Horde because of Silvanas’ manipulations…her motives for which were thoroughly self-serving…but I’m not sure how the Forsaken had anything to do with the Vulpera existing, or joining the Horde.
Besides…this is akin to saying because of Arthas’ efforts, the Forsaken exist…therefor the Scourge have a right to exist. They have ‘culture’…right?
The Vulpera were on the verge of being eradicated by the Sethrak. Because of the war, the Alliance were also burning down Vulpera homes and imprisoning an already dying race of people.
Sylvanas and the Horde (and the Forsaken by proxy) intervened and now the Vulpera are still alive and well.
Well, no, it’s not akin to that at all. The Forsaken would have been alive if not for Arthas, so nothing of value was added. In fact, the Forsaken exist because they … chose to exist. That’s the sum of it.
Beyond that, they don’t need a reason to exist. They don’t need your permission, because that’s what they want, that’s what they chose. There doesn’t need to be justification after that point.
You’re asking a group of living, cognitive creatures if they really NEED to exist. Kind of monstrous, in a way, even if it is hypothetical.
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The Alliance burned one Vulpera caravan, and held some of them captive during that one event. They didn’t imprison any of them. Further, the Horde itself didn’t do a thing to help…meaning, it was individual Horde heroes that came to the rescue. It would be a flimsy premise to suggest the Forsaken, as a race, have any right to claim the Vulpera continue to exist because of them.
Using the powers given him by his armor and sword, the Lichking (Arthas) literally created the Scourge, and it was from among them that the Forsaken came about. There would not BE any Forsaken at all if he hadn’t done that.
They’re also shipped off to the prison, Tol Dagor. They can be found running around.
No, it was by the order of Horde leadership, Sylvanas and Nathanos, who are both Forsaken and Horde.
You’re right, which is why I said by proxy. They helped in a collaborative effort to save the Vulpera, and the Vulpera were saved. Dialogue in game backs this up, and this is also why the Vulpera are so incredibly loyal to the Horde.
No, but they’d still be alive as Humans. Forsaken are basically just magical rotten humans. He didn’t make their lives better, and he didn’t bring them into being. He snuffed out their ego and made them into mindless slaves. If they didn’t bring themselves back, they’d still be mindless slaves. So, in both cases it’s by their own right that they exist, either as human or Forsaken. Arthas added nothing to this.
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You don’t.
People making new Forsaken will be told they’re “among the last Forsaken”. In addition, Forsaken are fighting for Azeroth because it’s the last bloody planet thanks to the Burning Legion and Sargeras.
The Vulpera in Tol Dagor are captured pirates from Freehold. There are no wartime Vulperan prisoners there.
While you do get a breadcrumb quest from High Warlord Cromush to check the situation out, the quest to save members of the caravan and put the fires out comes from Nisha…a Vulperan. It’s also very interesting to note that, even though the Horde hired the Vulpera to transport wartime supplies for them, they didn’t bother to assign any Horde guards to protect the caravan.
There was no Horde faction involvement in the protection or saving of the Vulpera. It was all the doing of individual Horde heroes, always through either their own cognizance, or by request of a Vulperan NPC.
But…we aren’t talking about what-ifs or coulda-beens. We have been talking about the Forsaken as they are, and their future. You can keep saying to yourself all day long that they weren’t created by the Lichking if that makes you feel better…but you’re wrong. They did free themselves from his control, but they ARE his progeny.
So what? Does this change that they were a dying race? Does this change that they were being locked up? You assumed I was talking about the Vulpera in Vol’Dun, and why would that matter? I’m simply stating that the Alliance didn’t help the Vulpera in any way.
Yes, the player character is of the Horde. We help the Horde, we represent the Horde. Our actions, especially in foreign lands, is of the Horde, for better or for worse.
No, because the Forsaken weren’t created by the Lich King. The Scourge were created by the Lich King, and the Forsaken, through their own willpower, willed themselves out of mindlessness.
No, they were changed by him, they don’t exist because of him. They would have been humans, still alive and well if he didn’t come along. If he had made them from clay or from machine parts, then you’d have a point. But, sadly he didn’t and you don’t.
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I didn’t say 1000-year-old forsaken or scourge. I said undead.
An offer. A chocie. Consent is important. Pretty simple “Would you like to continue to exist as a forsaken y/n?” and then we let them go about their unlife or kill them based on their answer.
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Burn them all!
Going extinct? Undead are not a species in and of yourselves. You are a collection of peoples of various species that were raised against your will who decided for some reason not to go to extremes to die a second time.
Also, I am still not entirely convinced that some form of mind control shenanigans were not involved.
Odyn still has his under Eyir.
But they only rez those who are worthy.
It is not lazy writing. You just missed the point. The notion of “there must always be a lich king” was always in reference to controlling the scourge. Uther states it in Halls of Reflection and it is later repeated by King Terenas II in the ICC finale cinematic.
“Without its masters command, the restless scourge will become an even greater threat. Control must be maintained! There must always be… a Lich King!” - King Terenas II
With the helm destroyed and reforged into something else. Along with Zovaal now dead, the scourge has no central leader to keep them contained or organized. As such the more dangerous and intelligent of the scourge are now fighting for control. What we saw in the Plaguelands during Cata is now happening everywhere. In fact, Bolvar and the Knights of the Ebon Blade are trying to prevent any one leader from raising up. The Blood Elf storyline coming in 9.2.5 will explore this as well.
And its not the same thing. This thread is specifically about Forsaken.
it took us (the heroes) a few weeks/months to finish. She might be mortal but still no different than us, so a few weeks or months if she takes her time.
Technically none of us know exactly how long we’ve been in the systemslands. Could have been a day mortal realm time or a millennium could have passed.