How do we overcome the bear nerfs next phases?

Apologies ahead of time for the wall of text.

tldr; MCP changes are a huge nerf in later phases. Even with Wild Strikes SoD-Bear is at best equivalent to Classic-Bear, let alone caught up to Warrior tank in classic, let alone caught up to the amazing improved SoD-Tanks. How do we fix this?

As someone who tanked all of classic and mainly played feral OT so far I’ve loved tanking BFD on the shaman, warrior, and lock, but feral just feels lacking. No matter though because feral gets huge improvements later! Once bear gets MCP it solves all of the issues you have with threat! Extra rage gen, extra mauls, extra DPS, and mass amounts of threat. It’s the perfect item to make Bear viable as a raid tank and attack speed scales together multiplicatively making it an incredibly useful stat that scales insanely well for bear! Librams + Gloves Enchant + Iron Counterweight + Warchief’s Blessing all combine with MCP to nearly double your attack speed in bear, it’s absolutely incredible and allows you to push the threat ceiling so high in classic that the extra DPS done by everyone in the raid without worrying about pulling more than offsets the lack of bear DPS itself compared to a furyprot tank. You throw kiss of the spider in there too and bear is almost down to 1.0 attack speed. Gear starts to dry up though once you’re a little farther into Naxx and that’s when bear stops scaling and falls off. It’s a fun run up to that point though and your incredible threat ceiling and ridiculous health pool + armor cap give you enough to overcome your drawbacks and be a solid tank.

The issue? MCP is gone now so how does Bear navigate a post-MCP world? The new “automated crowd pummeler” is MCP but with 84% reduced uptime. Bear was barely able to keep up with other tanks in the past with MCP, now it’s going to be pre-nerfed without MCP (84% of the fight Bear will now have a 50% attack speed debuff essentially) which is a significant hit to both threat, rage gen, and DPS. We’re talking about going from 1.36 attack speed to 2.0. In a typical 3 minute fight this is difference between 125 mauls and 97 mauls. Nearly 30 attacks is an incredible amount of threat, dps, and rage generated allowing you to dump even more attacks into additional threat/dps (primal fury scales with extra attacks too giving even more rage). Well at least we have additional runes now to make up for it, right? Wild Strikes brings that number of attacks up to 116 so we’re still 9 attacks short of MCP numbers. Lacerate? Right now lacerate is so far behind Devastate it’s a joke and requires stacking which gives it next to no snap threat. This again eliminates one of Bears biggest pluses from Classic, Bear snap threat with MCP and huge Maul crits early on meant that everyone could just start pumping without worry. But now Lacerate stacking is far more important meaning no snap threat, huge amounts of reduced rage gen, issues with misses/glancing due to rage starvation preventing Maul on every attack, and then worst of all losing threat early or forcing the raid to wait a few GCDs on pull.

So to recap, Bear threat is down and Bear snap threat is fully gone. Two of the biggest positives of bringing a bear to raid. So let’s look at the other runes, maybe Bear will find a new niche and overcome a lot of the previous downsides? The biggest downsides through classic on Bear tanking were lack of any meaningful survival cooldown equivalent to Last Stand or Shield Wall (especially Shield Wall), inability to potion during fights without risking getting one shot during powershift due to batching (could be played around with in single target fights if you understood and knew the patterns of the fight), vulnerable to misses (missing first Maul kills your snap threat, resisted taunt leaves you extremely vulnerable with no mocking blow, etc.), and lack of DPS (overcome by pushing threat ceiling up). So far the runes given and the other runes datamined (may not be added) don’t seem to overcome any of these. Lacerate kind of gives bear something if Maul misses, but it more or less takes the place of Maul spam since rage generation is going to be an issue. There’s the potential “Renewal” rune which heals you for 30% of you maximum health in Bear which absolutely does not cover for Shield Wall or last stand since it doesn’t give you any additional EHP towards preventing a 1 shot. It will be useful for healer mana and covering healer casting lapses on Patchwork, but it won’t make up for the Bear downside of missing a mitigation CD. There’s the potential for “Natural Reaction” which increases your dodge chance by 10%, and you regenerate 3 rage every time you dodge while in Bear Form, but I’d be interested to see if that’s even worth taking. Generally dodge meant reduced rage generation which lowered your threat ceiling so it was avoided. Maybe this rune just makes it so you don’t mind taking Dodge? Again, doesn’t really move the needle at all, we’re already at armor cap so melee hits that can be dodged are meaningless anyway except for maybe pushing dodge high enough that it helps healer mana on really specific fights like Patchwork/Broodlord?

Overall though, nothing really moves the needle and Bear still looks like it’s below Classic in terms of losing its niche while not really gaining anything. What are some things that can be done? Would love to hear some ideas that aren’t just give us mocking blow, give us shield wall, etc. Some things I’ve seen tossed out there/thought about are a rune to allow drinking elixirs/potions in bear for double effect, modifying the Lacerate rune to also have swipe apply Lacerate to all targets hit, Rune that allows weapon enchants to work on attacks in feral forms and include weapon damage in feral form attacks, or a “Hibernate” rune that puts the bear to sleep for 10 seconds and breaks when taking damage but the next damage taken is fully ignored (huge defensive cooldown that isn’t just a copy of Shield Wall, but requires playing around it and having fight awareness).

Would love to hear some additional thoughts or ideas!

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Bear tank? LOL. You will be a wind fury totem and you will like it

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Sad bear noises

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I’ll take any amount of nerfs to not have to farm MCPs every week

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You won’t have to farm MCP if Bears can’t tank! That’s for sure

You won’t have to farm MCP

They don’t have charges so you don’t have to farm them anyways.

I know, I was making a joke.

That’s one of the main points of the post though. Without charges Bear is now basically taking a 50% attack speed debuff for ~84% of fights. It’s not recouped via Wild Strikes either.

A 3 minute fight with old MCP + Gloves enchant + Libram + Warchief’s Blessing + Iron Counterweight would get you 125 attacks.

New “automated crowd pummeler” + Gloves enchant + Libram + Warchief’s Blessing + Iron Counterweight would get you 97 attacks.

If you factor in Wild Strikes that only brings you up to 116 attacks.

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isnt lacerate better than maul across the board?

Do we know the threat modifier on it? Maul at end game is attack + 128 with 175% base threat modifier multiplied by bear + talent threat modifiers. I’m not sure what lacerate is, but right now it beats out Maul. I doubt currently it would beat out maul with full haste at 1.0 attack speed though?

Comparatively though playing the other tanks so far Lacerate just feels awful. It’s slow to stack and significantly worse than devastate on DPS and TPS, let alone anything from Sham tank. It won’t scale at all compared to Warrior or Sham as we level too.

MCP was always a broken crutch for bears, and if this was simply just a Fresh ERA server where there were no other changes, it would certainly be problematic for them. However with Runes, the entire need for having the MCP could go away. In fact even with the current runes Feral has several new abilities which add both DPS and Threat so its possible that the issue could have already been resolved, though we also don’t know what runes will be added in P2, P3, P4, as well as to see how bears perform at 60.

Overall getting rid of MCP Is likely a good thing for for bears, assuming the underlying issues are resolved, since it would allow them to get better stat sticks as they hit end game, and not be required to farm a level 40 Raid (as it wont be a dungeon in SoD) to get an item simply to be viable. I also don’t think any Feral druid will be upset also about not having to farm Gnomer each week.

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Totally agree with removal of MCP. The issue is currently Bear is no better than pre-SoD bear while every other class just got significant improvements. Getting rid of MCP is great, but there needs to be absolutely massive changes to catch bears back up. So that’s what I’m asking about, ideas to catch bears back up.

We’re eating a 50% attack speed reduction for 80%+ of fights. Lacerate isn’t doing anything to move the needle so far and scales off of weapon damage. This means unless they also start throwing stat sticks into every raid that scale insanely well for Bear it isn’t doing a single thing to help us out, requires 5 GCDs to stack up, and completely rage starves us currently. I’d highly encourage you to play Devastate Warrior and then Lacerate Bear and just experience the difference.

Enjoy taking 20 lockouts before a single MCP drops.

Never said I wanted MCP, but we need something to make up for it.

Would love to hear your suggestions!

I assume Bear Tanks will have some fancy new Runes that will make MCP obsolete. Personally, I like the idea of not having to farm MCP over and over again.

Edit: rejoice!

Me too, but what? So far we’re seeing Bear sitting at the worst tank spot and without MCP in the future it’s in an even worse spot. Lacerate + Wild Strikes basically puts it even with pre-SoD MCP Bear and every other tank got massive improvements. So it’s going to take some absolutely sweeping changes to make Bear remotely close to these other tanks.

I’d love to hear your ideas on how to accomplish that?

I’m confused, did they release a sneak peek of the next phases runes?

Only what can currently be data mined:

  • Natural Reaction Increases your dodge chance by 10%, and you regenerate 3 rage every time you dodge while in Bear Form or Dire Bear Form, 10 energy while in Cat Form, or 1% of your maximum mana while in any other form.

  • Renewal Instantly heal yourself for 30% of you maximum health. Useable in all forms.

  • Thrash

But that’s the point, what do you think could be added that will catch Bears back up? We currently know that there’s no MCP and it’s been changed to Automated Crowd Pummeler (generally a positive reaction since a majority of people hated farming MCPs), but also a massive nerf to Bear (50% reduced attack speed for ~84% of fights). So far we haven’t seen enough to really make up for MCP in any meaningful way.

So that’s what I’m asking, what do you think can be added that not only makes up for this loss, but lets us catch up to the other tanks that are great now?

Well, honestly these things alone are great. My main issues with bear tanking currently are lack of AoE, lack of ST, no access to block, and having to rely on avoidance. A 10% increase to dodge with a form of rage regen will go a long way. Thrash will take care of some AOE concerns. What i’d like to see is some added AoE, like a double moonfire or sunfire action like in retail. Not every tank is going to be S-tier. I also wouldn’t mind an “oh :poop:” button. Like you had a bad pull and crap is hitting the fan, a way to wrangle everything back together which is currently missing with a bear tank.

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Well maybe i missed it but i didnt see anything mentioned about lacerate currently doing weapon damage. The reason mcp stayed so good is because we didnt care about weapon damage, just stat sticks. So lacerate will make us actually scale later and things like hand of rag will legit be good for us in mc. Maybe they will add thrash and also make it weapon dmg based. We can dream

I think it’s too soon to say, and I’m holding out hope for the following reasons:

(1) Though the MCP to ACP change can be considered a nerf, it also indicates that feral druids are at least on the devs’ radar

(2) Lacerate doesn’t replace maul

(3) Wild Strikes is better than no Wild Strikes

(4) The inclusion of the FAP hammer in BFD indicates that the devs may continue to provide us with additional FAP/give us better itemization.

(5) Feral tanks were always late bloomers. I don’t think it really started feeling good until I had dire bear and was in devilsaur

I mean, we could suck, but I’m not quite ready to call it yet. A lot of it will depend on how the other tanks do. I think P2 will really start to show where we’re at.